Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[Butch5]

Born again refers to the human spirit not the human body.

Again same scripture.

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


The Holy Spirit does not give birth (rebirth) to our flesh.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

The reason Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again was because Nicodemus was a Jew. As a Jew he believed he was the heir to the promises made to Abraham. The Jews were God's son. This passage in Exodus speaks of their first birth.

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. (Ex 4:21-23 KJV)

As God's son they were the heirs. They were entitled to the inheritance. Or so they thought. Jesus corrects this thinking for Nicodemus when He tells him, 'you must be born again.' In other words, Nicodemus, your birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the Kingdom of Heaven. You must have another birth, this time you must be born of water and the Spirit.

 

[Corn Pop]

Got a scripture that says Jesus repented of anything ?
Much less for the sins of others ?

If the scripture says John's baptism is a baptism of repentance then why did Jesus get baptised in water if he didn't need to repent of any sins?

 

[Corn Pop]

I would guess if someone has the Holy Spirit that saves, yet water alone does not give the Spirit, so water alone does not save. As scripture says some people only had John's Baptism and didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit until Paul spoke with them and there was the laying of hands.

He told the people to believe in the one coming after John, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Because there is 2 different baptisms is it Christs baptism or John's baptism and John said the baptism after his is greater.

 

[Butch5]

I would guess if someone has the Holy Spirit that saves, yet water alone does not give the Spirit, so water does not save. As scripture says some people only had John's Baptism and didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit.

Peter addressed a crowd and gave a story then when questioned he said repent and baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And when they heard his words and believed they were baptised like 3000 people. I don't think they got water baptised I think listening to what Peter told them and hearing the gospel and believing what Peter told them they were baptised.

Right. Repent, then be baptized, the recieve the Holy Spirit.

See the order? First one repents. Then one is baptized for their sins to be forgiven. Then they receive the Holy Spirit. Logically Then, if one doesn't get baptized their sins are not forgiven and they don't receive the Holy Spirit. That shows us that baptism is necessary to he saved.

 

[Corn Pop]

Right. Repent, then be baptized, the recieve the Holy Spirit.

See the order? First one repents. Then one is baptized for their sins to be forgiven. Then they receive the Holy Spirit. Logically Then, if one doesn't get baptized their sins are not forgiven and they don't receive the Holy Spirit. That shows us that baptism is necessary to he saved.

So who dunked Adam, Abraham, Noah, and Moses, as example in water?. If one must be dunked in water to enter the Kingdom how do they get a free pass because i would guess they enter the Kingdom. Noah was floating on the water not dunked in it. I think Moses just split it and then walked through it. Correct me if wrong but I don't think anyone dunked them in water.

 

[Butch5]

So who dunked Adam, Abraham, Noah, and Moses, as example in water?. If one must be dunked in water to enter the Kingdom how do they get a free pass because i would guess they enter the Kingdom. Noah was floating on the water not dunked in it. I think Moses just split it and then walked through it. Correct me if wrong but I don't think anyone dunked them in water.

Jesus instuted the New Covenant. Baptism is entrance into the new covenant. The saints you mentioned all lived under the old covenant. Peter said that Noah was saved through water. The word translated through is dia. It means instramentality. In other words, the water was the instrument that God used to save Noah. Noah was saved from the evil that had covered the earth. The flood destroyed all the evil in the world of that time. Thus, the water saved Noah or Noah was saved through the water. In the New Covenant baptism is that water. The person who is baptized is saved through that water. The water is the instrument that God uses to save. It's the point where one enters into a covenant with God.

 

[Corn Pop]

So Noah was saved and had a water baptism yet no one literally dunked him in water.

 

[Butch5]

So Noah was saved through water baptism yet no one literally dunked him in water.

No, Noah wasn't save through baptism. He was saved through water. The point is that God uses water.

 

[Corn Pop]

No, Noah wasn't save through baptism. He was saved through water. The point is that God uses water.

Yes and Noah didn't get dunked in that water to be saved through that water. Some people say you have to be dunked in water.

 

[Butch5]

Yes and Noah didn't get dunked in that water.

Do you believe Scripture?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Born again refers to the human spirit not the human body.

Again same scripture.

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


The Holy Spirit does not give birth (rebirth) to our flesh.

Born again means born again.
You are trying to get me to believe in a partial rebirth that retains some of the old man.
I was once born of my mom.
Many years later, my old man was destroyed at its immersion into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:6)
A reborn man was then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Your methodology runs counter to Jesus' parable about new wine being put into new bottles. (Luke5:37-38)
You are opining that new wine is being put into old bottles.
I'ld hate to see you lose your life, because you saved it.
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:24)

 

[Corn Pop]

The thief on the cross, I don't think they had John's baptism, maybe as scriprute doesn't say but i doubt it, and had nothing to lose and decided to put there trust and hope in Christ by asking to remember him when he enters his kingdom, that's faith and belief, and that seemed to be enough.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If the scripture says John's baptism is a baptism of repentance then why did Jesus get baptised in water if he didn't need to repent of any sins?

Jesus was fulfilling the pre-sage of the washing of the priests before they could take their office.
Jesus is now the High Priest. (Num 8:6-15)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The thief on the cross, I don't think he had John's baptism and he had nothing to lose and decided to put his trust and hope in Christ by asking to remember him, and that seemed to be enough.

Nobody knows if the thief was baptized or not, but his thievery would sorta show he had not, as theft is one of the sins men repented of.
Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins.
The thief couldn't be baptized into Christ or into His death until Jesus was dead anyway. (Rom 6:3-4)

The thief did literally, what we have been enabled to do by water baptism.
He died with Christ.

 

[Butch5]

The thief on the cross, I don't think they had John's baptism, maybe as scriprute doesn't say but i doubt it, and had nothing to lose and decided to put there trust and hope in Christ by asking to remember him when he enters his kingdom, that's faith and belief, and that seemed to be enough.

Were not told whether he baptized or not. However, that's not correct reasoning. To take a passage in which were not told about the persons naptism and claim that refute what is plainly stated in Scripture is illogical. Peter told the Jews to repent for the forgiveness of sins. How does one get saved if their sons are not fkrgiven? He also said that baptism saves us the same way that the water saved Noah.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: ( 1Pet. 18-21 KJV)

It can't really be said much clearer than that.

 

[Corinth77777]

That's irrelevant.

That's one reason Christians should look at church history. If you look at Paul 's writings, virtually everywhere he speaks of not being saved by works the context is the Mosaic Law. We don't get to take his words and apply our own context and definitions.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey cthe truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3:1–5.

Here we see that Paul equates the works of the Law with the flesh.

.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by lthe law and mthe prophets;

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 3:19–22.

We see here that Paul understood that righteousness before Christ was via the Law of Moses.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 4:11.

Here we see that Abraham did something to receive that seal of righteousness.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 9:31.

Here we see that Paul equates the Law of Moses with righteousness. He calls it the Law of Righteousness.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 10:4–5.

Here Paul says Christ is the end of the Law for believers. That Law is a law of Righteousness as we see in this passage.

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, nan Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Php 3.

Paul here equates a righteousness with the Law. So, Paul understands that there is a righteousness in the Law.

, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Php 3:8–9.

Again, Paul sees a righteousness in keeping the Law. This was a common belief among the Jews. So, keeping the Law is "righteous deeds."

Regarding the Gentiles, no, they didn't have the Law. What they had was the Judaizers. The Judaizers were Jews who had accepted Christ but also insisted that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. They went behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also had to keep the Law.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:1–2.

They were telling the Gentiles they had to be circumcised. So Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to speak with the other apostles.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ac 15:4–5.

When they went to the Jerusalem church there was a group who said the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. This was the same thing the Judaizers were claiming. We see this with the Galatians.

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ga 3.

We see that someone was telling the Gentiles that they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Paul equates keeping the Law with the works of the flesh or keeping ordinances. He's asking the Galatians, did you receive the Spirit through faith or through keeping the righteous deeds of the Law? He's clearly contrasting being saved by faith or being saved by works. It's abundantly clear that these works are the works of the Mosaic Law.

You kept writing so felt you weren't going to address the questions. The gentiles were not under the law for righteousness. There is nothing that you have written that pen s it down. That's why a lot of what you wrote petaining to my question is speculative.

People cannot say everything they don't mean or do mean, especially when they are speaking to a particular group. For example, sense you mentioned context, Galatians He addressed.
Also yes Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe, but just because the law is mentioned that does not mean that He says everything He can mean by that.

The Better thought in that area is that it is God who justifies. That will cover it all.

 

[Free]

Amen. That is what Jesus s teaching Nicodemus.

He uses earthly things (natural birth) to teach him spiritual things (spiritual birth).

Why take my quote out of context and avoid my actual argument?

Basic logic tells us that if a person must first be born in order to be "born again," then if a person isn't born, they can never be born again and enter the kingdom of God. If babies in the womb are excluded, "considered innocent," then that makes Jesus's statement pointless; it would go without saying that a person must be born in order to be born again.

Either way, it points out that interpreting "born of water" as being born from the womb is problematic--it either sends the unborn dead to hell, or "born of water" is meaningless. As such, it likely refers to something else, like water baptism.

 

[Corinth77777]

That is a tad out of context to what I was replying to.

Accidental response

 

[JLB]

Born again means born again.

Since we have the context we see taught that ..,
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


You doctrine teaches that… which is born of the Spirit is flesh.


Your flesh was not born again.

Your flesh will be resurrected when Jesus returns.

For now the instructions you have from the Spirit is… do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.