Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

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You may want to read Peter's example again. He says it was the water that saved Noah.

The water in that illustration was God's judgment. As you can see, it's a very poor illustration of water baptism. But a perfect illustration of Spirit baptism.

Antitype: something that is represented by a symbol. That symbol is the Ark which is a type of Jesus. We are saved from God's judgment by being placed into Christ. See the picture being painted? We don't get dunked into Gods judgment to be saved.

Peter refers back to this "type" when he says there is now an "antitype" that saves. The antitype is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not the removal of filth from the flesh. A baptism by faith. By Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, not water.
 
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The water in that illustration was God's judgment. As you can see, it's a very poor illustration of water baptism. But a perfect illustration of Spirit baptism.

Antitype: something that is represented by a symbol. That symbol is the Ark which is a type of Jesus. We are saved from God's judgment by being placed into Christ. See the picture being painted? We don't get dunked into Gods judgment to be saved.

Peter refers back to this "type" when he says there is now an "antitype" that saves. The antitype is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not the removal of filth from the flesh. A baptism by faith. By Jesus, with the Holy Spirit, not water.
What is see is you changing Scripture. Peter said that Noah was saved through water. The water was the instrument that God used to save Noah. The antitype of that is baptism. As I said in another post, it couldn't be much clearer. And yet people still try to make it say something different.
 
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Noah was saved by the Ark.

He was saved from the water (through), which was Gods judgment.
 
That's not what it says. We don't get to make it up. It says he was saved through water. It's instrumentally. The water is the instrument God used. Likewise the water of baptism is the instrument that God now uses.

Not the removal of filth from the flesh.

You don't get to rewrite it.
 
Since we have the context we see taught that ..,
which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:6


You doctrine teaches that… which is born of the Spirit is flesh.
If you want to call the quickened by the Spirit skin and bones "flesh", you are welcome to.
I don't.
Your flesh was not born again.
Were that to be true, then Paul was wrong about the effects of baptism into Christ and into His death and burial, in Rom 6:6.
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
Your doctrine of partial rebirth makes Paul a liar.
Your flesh will be resurrected when Jesus returns.
It isn't "my" skin and bones.
It is His now.
For now the instructions you have from the Spirit is… do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
It is easy to keep sin out of this quickened by the Spirit mortal vessel, when all the former lusts have been destroyed.

Your false doctrine is an accommodation for continued sin.
 
The 'flesh' may be crucified, so to speak, in a way accurate with the Bible, but
the flesh is still unable to provide a way to the Kingdom. The flesh still "profits nothing".

Is immersion in Jesus Name necessary for healing ?

Is obedience required to be an example of a disciple of Jesus ?
 
The 'flesh' may be crucified, so to speak, in a way accurate with the Bible, but
the flesh is still unable to provide a way to the Kingdom. The flesh still "profits nothing".
Who cares about the old vessel ?
We get a new one at our resurrection to eternal life !
Is immersion in Jesus Name necessary for healing ?
If you are referring to the soul, then yes, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is necessary for healing.
Is obedience required to be an example of a disciple of Jesus ?
Absolutely.
 
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 21
chap. xxi.—the views of redemption entertained by these heretics.

1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of “redemption” as there are teachers of these mystical opinions. And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.


2. They maintain that those who have attained to perfect knowledge must of necessity be regenerated into that power which is above all. For it is otherwise impossible to find admittance within the Pleroma, since this [regeneration] it is which leads them down into the depths of Bythus. For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins, but the redemption brought in by that Christ who descended upon Him, was for perfection; and they allege that the former is animal, but the latter spiritual. And the baptism of John was proclaimed with a view to repentance, but the redemption by Jesus

Irenaeus of Lyons. 1885. “Irenæus against Heresies.” In The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, 1:345. The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
Irenaeus of Lyons. 1885. “Irenæus against Heresies.” In The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, 1:345. The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
 
Were that to be true, then Paul was wrong about the effects of baptism into Christ and into His death and burial,

Were that true???

Paul’s own words from Romans 6, which is to water baptized Christians -


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

If you want to continue to deny that Romans 6:12 is not true then so be it, but Christians who have the Spirit know that words of scripture are the truth.

Sin remains in our mortal body.

Our physical body is not born again at water baptism.


You were taught false doctrine as a young Christian and it has remained with you. Now you deny what the scriptures teach in favor of the doctrinal mindset you were taught.
 
Were that true???
The entire, reborn, new creature, is all new.
I find it troubling that you don't believe 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Paul’s own words from Romans 6, which is to water baptized Christians -
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
I can agree with Paul's pointing out that if we resist temptation, we won't commit sin.
If you want to continue to deny that Romans 6:12 is not true then so be it, but Christians who have the Spirit know that words of scripture are the truth.
Rom 6:12 is true.
Remain in command of your mortal body, and no sin can enter it.
Sin remains in our mortal body.
Then there actually is no remission of sin, and Jesus failed.
Our physical body is not born again at water baptism.
I disagree, as we have been given the way whereby we can walk in newness of life.
You were taught false doctrine as a young Christian and it has remained with you. Now you deny what the scriptures teach in favor of the doctrinal mindset you were taught.
Unfortunately, I learned it far too late in my life.
Jesus' conquest of sin and death was a myth to me, until I believed what has been written about it.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
Those "in Him", are righteous.
Those not in Him, or those who allege sin in their skin and bones, continue to carry all their past sins to their destruction.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, cures that problem.
 
There are some who believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation based on a handful of Scriptures.

Baptismal regeneration is the doctrine that baptism results in regeneration of the subject baptized. Usually based upon John 3:5 and Titus 3:5.

I have concluded that Baptismal Regeration is a work added to Salvation and consider it a different Gospel.

Studying these scriptures and reading commentaries shed much light for me on this subject. I turn to men of God who are fluent in the original languages and understand hermeneutics more than I ever can.

There are many different interpretations of this verse including two births (physical and spiritual), water as a symbol for Holy Spirit or the word of God. I would like to focus on what some would believe is Baptismal Regenration (born of water).

There are other Scriptures that can be addressed as well.

This should be a good start.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 does not teach Baptismal Regeneration. In fact, it is not even referring to baptism! In John 3, Jesus makes the statement that, “Unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God” (3:3). In response, Nicodemus asks, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (3:4). Jesus’ answer is, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God” (3:5). In the context of this conversation it is more natural to understand Jesus’ use of the word “water” as a reference to physical birth rather than baptism. As every mother knows, all children are literally born “out of water.” Therefore, when Nicodemus asked, “Can a man be born a second time from his mother’s womb?” Jesus in essence conceded that a man had to be born of water, that is, physically. Yet, He went on to insist that the second birth was spiritual in nature. Thus, John 3 does not teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. It teaches that physical birth is. In other words, a person must be born before he can be born again. John 3:6 confirms this view, saying “that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” That says it all.
[1]Chafer Theological Seminary. (1997; 2002). Chafer Theological Seminary Journal Volume 3



Carson has an excellent argument against this interpretation writing that "If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14–15), the work of God himself (vv. 16–17), and the place of faith (vv. 15–16)....The Spirit plays a powerful role in John 14–16; 20:22, but there is no hint of baptism.....The entire view seems to rest on an unarticulated prejudice that every mention of water evoked instant recognition, in the minds of first-century readers, that the real reference was to baptism, but it is very doubtful that this prejudice can be sustained by the sources. Even so, this conclusion does not preclude the possibility of a secondary allusion to baptism" Borrow The Gospel according to John)

J M Boice - Unfortunately, this is not substantiated either by the text or by biblical theology. The text says nothing at all about baptism, and the Bible elsewhere teaches that no one is saved by any external rite of religion (1 Sam. 16:7; Rom. 2:28–29; Gal. 2:15, 16; 5:1–6). Baptism is a sign of what has already taken place, but it is not the agent by which it takes place.(Boice - The Gospel of John)

Kenneth Wuest - Others interpret the word “water” as referring to the rite of water baptism. But we submit that this is pure eisegesis, reading into the text something that is not there. Surely, the word “water” in itself, does not include within its meaning the idea of baptism. Furthermore, the only proper recipient of water baptism is one who has already been born again, the new-birth preceding water baptism, not the rite preceding the new birth. Again, the question arises as to how such a supernatural change as regeneration produces, could be the result of a mere ceremony.

MacArthur - Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist’s baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (Jn 4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. (See John Commentary - What Does It Mean to be Born of Water and Spirit?)

In John 3:5, Jesus states, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." This scripture reflects both natural and spiritual realities that intertwine within the new birth. Here, Jesus introduces Nicodemus to a deeper understanding of spiritual rebirth beyond natural comprehension. Let’s break this down, considering both the symbolism of water and the work of the Spirit, while aligning it with John's baptism and Christ's instructions.

Born of Water and Spirit​

  1. "Born of Water" – This has symbolic and spiritual significance, not merely pointing to physical water as in baptism, but deeper to the concept of cleansing, renewal, and repentance, a continual theme in Jesus’ ministry and John’s. Just as John’s baptism symbolizes repentance and the washing away of sin, being "born of water" reflects a spiritual turning point where the individual is cleansed from sin, a preparatory state for new life. It’s important to understand this as not being water baptism itself, but the act of turning from sin and beginning the process of new birth, which includes spiritual cleansing that aligns with baptism's purpose of public repentance.
  2. "Born of Spirit" – The second essential element is the spiritual rebirth. This refers to the indwelling and transformation brought about by the Holy Spirit. Symbolically, water alone does not bring life; it is the Spirit that quickens and gives eternal life. In This reflects the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit), filling and empowering the believer. Jesus was pointing Nicodemus to the necessity of being born again by the indwelling Spirit, a transformation that makes one alive to the Kingdom of God.

John’s Baptism and the Disciples Baptizing​

  • John’s Baptism – John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, a precursor to the fuller work of spiritual renewal through Christ. It was a symbolic washing away of the old self, preparing people for the coming Messiah. The importance of repentance was foundational for the new birth, but John himself declared that the One coming after him (Christ) would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11). This shows that John's baptism was incomplete without the Spirit, which is why Jesus introduces both elements—water and Spirit—to Nicodemus.
  • Christ’s Disciples Baptizing – Jesus had His disciples baptize people (John 3:22), but this was more an extension of John's work of repentance. However, Jesus emphasized that the true fulfillment of baptism would come through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was later poured out on the Day of Pentecost. Water baptism, under the disciples' ministry at this point, was a symbol of repentance, while the Spiritual baptism was the deeper transformation yet to come, foreshadowing the new birth through the Spirit.

The Symbolic Unity​

The water and Spirit are unified in their work. Water symbolizes repentance and cleansing, while the Spirit signifies transformation and new life. Together, they form the complete rebirth process. God operates both as Father (the source), Son (manifested in the flesh to redeem), and Spirit (indwelling and transforming). The oneness of God is seen here, as the act of repentance (through John's and the disciples' baptisms) sets the stage for the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) to transform believers into new creations.

Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ​

Later, in the Book of Acts, this baptismal formula would be fully revealed, with baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts 2:38) being connected to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, making the new birth complete. The disciples were baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit was being poured out on those who repented and were baptized.

In conclusion, John 3:5 is not strictly referring to baptismal regeneration but rather to the full process of spiritual rebirth that involves both repentance (symbolized by water) and transformation (through the Spirit). This aligns perfectly with the understanding of God manifesting through Christ and His Spirit, bringing about full new birth through His divine work in us.
 
How do you know that ?
Can you show some scriptures from Acts where someone "called on the name of the Lord" that were not during water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of past sins ?
Why? Your the one adding to the text not me. It was defined by Paul: because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord10 and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
Jesus forgave sin in the gospels and He never added anything in addition required to that forgiveness He did state, "Your faith has saved you" So faith is the key not water baptism. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is NOT a must to be saved.If you reasoned anything about anyone calling on the Lord wouldn't that be male, female, gentile, Jew? ALL peoples not just jews.
Why would anyone with the cited sincere faith doubt what Peter said in Act 2:38 ?
Or Ananias in Acts 22:16 ?
While Jesus waked the earth, He had power to forgive sin, and He did so on many occasions.
Even we can forgive sins that are committed against us.
But Peter has told us exactly how to have our past sins remitted, in Acts 2:38.
Why are you opening another door to forgiveness, when we all know what God gave to Peter on our behalf ?
I'm stating the authority lies with the Lord not man. I not against baptism. I believe those who believe and are baptized will be saved.
Without being baptized into Him, you cannot believe from within Him.
Jesus never said "Whosoever believes from without me will live."
Peter told us how to have our sins remitted, in Acts 2:38.
Wrong the HS wasn't poured out before the cross. People believed in Him.
They might refuse, if they go after your substitute remission doctrine.

I can't agree.
If He really would forgive without baptism, wouldn't the Ethiopian eunuch, in the middle of a desert, have been a great time to demonstrate a "no water" remission of past sins ?
I have no doctrine just answering the OP.
 
As God's son they were the heirs. They were entitled to the inheritance. Or so they thought. Jesus corrects this thinking for Nicodemus when He tells him, 'you must be born again.' In other words, Nicodemus, your birth as the seed of Abraham is not sufficient to gain you access to the Kingdom of Heaven. You must have another birth, this time you must be born of water and the Spirit.



He is already born of water...thats why his thinking was Can I go back into my mother's womb.



HE needed to be born of the one who came from heaven. And speculatively one can also interpret



Of Jesu
If you want to continue to deny that Romans 6:12 is not true then so be it, but Christians who have the Spirit know that words of scripture are the truth.

Sin remains in our mortal body.

Our physical body is not born again at water baptism.


You were taught false doctrine as a young Christian and it has remained with you. Now you deny what the scriptures teach in favor of the doctrinal mindset you were taught.

In John 3:5, Jesus states, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." This scripture reflects both natural and spiritual realities that intertwine within the new birth. Here, Jesus introduces Nicodemus to a deeper understanding of spiritual rebirth beyond natural comprehension. Let’s break this down, considering both the symbolism of water and the work of the Spirit, while aligning it with John's baptism and Christ's instructions.

Born of Water and Spirit​

  1. "Born of Water" – This has symbolic and spiritual significance, not merely pointing to physical water as in baptism, but deeper to the concept of cleansing, renewal, and repentance, a continual theme in Jesus’ ministry and John’s. Just as John’s baptism symbolizes repentance and the washing away of sin, being "born of water" reflects a spiritual turning point where the individual is cleansed from sin, a preparatory state for new life. It’s important to understand this as not being water baptism itself, but the act of turning from sin and beginning the process of new birth, which includes spiritual cleansing that aligns with baptism's purpose of public repentance.
  2. "Born of Spirit" – The second essential element is the spiritual rebirth. This refers to the indwelling and transformation brought about by the Holy Spirit. Symbolically, water alone does not bring life; it is the Spirit that quickens and gives eternal life. In This reflects the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit), filling and empowering the believer. Jesus was pointing Nicodemus to the necessity of being born again by the indwelling Spirit, a transformation that makes one alive to the Kingdom of God.

John’s Baptism and the Disciples Baptizing​

  • John’s Baptism – John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, a precursor to the fuller work of spiritual renewal through Christ. It was a symbolic washing away of the old self, preparing people for the coming Messiah. The importance of repentance was foundational for the new birth, but John himself declared that the One coming after him (Christ) would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11). This shows that John's baptism was incomplete without the Spirit, which is why Jesus introduces both elements—water and Spirit—to Nicodemus.
  • Christ’s Disciples Baptizing – Jesus had His disciples baptize people (John 3:22), but this was more an extension of John's work of repentance. However, Jesus emphasized that the true fulfillment of baptism would come through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was later poured out on the Day of Pentecost. Water baptism, under the disciples' ministry at this point, was a symbol of repentance, while the Spiritual baptism was the deeper transformation yet to come, foreshadowing the new birth through the Spirit.

The Symbolic Unity​

The water and Spirit are unified in their work. Water symbolizes repentance and cleansing, while the Spirit signifies transformation and new life. Together, they form the complete rebirth process. God operates both as Father (the source), Son (manifested in the flesh to redeem), and Spirit (indwelling and transforming). The oneness of God is seen here, as the act of repentance (through John's and the disciples' baptisms) sets the stage for the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) to transform believers into new creations.

Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ​

Later, in the Book of Acts, this baptismal formula would be fully revealed, with baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts 2:38) being connected to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, making the new birth complete. The disciples were baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit was being poured out on those who repented and were baptized.

In conclusion, John 3:5 is not strictly referring to baptismal regeneration but rather to the full process of spiritual rebirth that involves both repentance (symbolized by water) and transformation (through the Spirit). This aligns perfectly with the understanding of God manifesting through Christ and His Spirit, bringing about full new birth through His divine work in us.
Really nice explanation - however I have some questions
 
Really nice explanation - however I have some questions

Born or water is just what it implies - your born of your mother; natural birth.

Jesus uses natural birth (earthly things) to teach Nicodemus about spiritual birth (heavenly things).

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

Verse 6, contextually show us His thought process in this teaching.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

  • That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



JLB
 
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Basic logic tells us that if a person must first be born in order to be "born again," then if a person isn't born, they can never be born again

Yes. I agree. It would be foolish to think a person who is never born could be born again.

“Again” -
certainly implies another birth.


However, when dealing with an unborn infant or even children under the age of accountability, which refers to an innocent children that knows not of right or wrong, good or evil, who can not comprehend or have the ability to believe the Gospel, then they will certainly enter the kingdom of God being innocent.


As I have shown from the words of Jesus -


Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3


Jesus plainly associates little children with entering the kingdom of heaven.

Unborn children certainly fall into the category of being little children.





JLB
 
Your false doctrine is an accommodation for continued sin.

Continued labelling of other people's doctrines as "false" rather than simply debating the issue will result in a forum ban. It forces others to respond in kind and leads the dicussion into spiritual immaturity. See that it is corrected please.

If you wish to discuss it, take it up with staff in TWTS.

Thanks,
Hidden
 
Yes. I agree. It would be foolish to think a person who is never born could be born again.
And, knowing that "born again" refers to spiritual birth, then you must necessarily agree that if a baby is never born, then it cannot be born again and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God.

“Again” - certainly implies another birth.
Exactly. Which means, according to your understanding of "born by water," all unborn children cannot enter the kingdom of God.

However, when dealing with an unborn infant or even children under the age of accountability, which refers to an innocent children that knows not of right or wrong, good or evil, who can not comprehend or have the ability to believe the Gospel, then they will certainly enter the kingdom of God being innocent.
Where does Jesus give that caveat to Nicodemus?

As I have shown from the words of Jesus -


Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3


Jesus plainly associates little children with entering the kingdom of heaven.

Unborn children certainly fall into the category of being little children.
So, what you’re implying is, Nicodemus was right and adults have to be physically born again so they can become little children, correct? If not, then you need to explain exactly what Jesus meant by becoming "as little children."

The point is, if by “born of water” Jesus meant physical birth, then either one must be physically born or physical birth is not what Jesus was meaning. You can’t just go adding caveats that Jesus didn’t state. By doing so, you have made his statement of the (supposed) necessity of being physically born completely meaningless. If the unborn go into the kingdom of God, then it goes without saying that to be born again one must already be physically born. Jesus should then have just said, "unless one is born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Why also add "born of water" if it's to state the obvious and so be pointless?
 
And, knowing that "born again" refers to spiritual birth, then you must necessarily agree that if a baby is never born, then it cannot be born again and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I have explained, with scripture, three times now what I believe about little children which includes unborn children entering the kingdom of God.


I believe little children, which includes unborn children do enter the kingdom of God upon their death because they are innocent.


Please don’t bother to address me again.
 
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