Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

[My Rock]

Born or water is just what it implies - your born of your mother; natural birth.

Jesus uses natural birth (earthly things) to teach Nicodemus about spiritual birth (heavenly things).

In John 3:5, Jesus’ statement "born of water and the Spirit" is often interpreted by some to refer to natural birth when referencing the "water" (amniotic fluid during childbirth). However, this "water" is not a reference to physical birth but rather to spiritual cleansing through baptism, specifically baptism in Jesus’ name. Let’s unpack why this refers to baptism and not natural birth, while maintaining a distinction between what we do (being baptized-Earthly Things) and what Christ does (filling us with the Holy Spirit-Heavenly Things).

​

Water as Spiritual Cleansing – Throughout the New Testament, "water" often represents spiritual cleansing, especially in the context of baptism. In Acts 2:38, Peter explicitly commands repentance and baptism in Jesus’ name for the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is not a symbolic ritual of natural birth but a deliberate act of identifying with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, where sins are washed away. This "born of water" refers to the baptism in Jesus' name, which brings about spiritual purification through faith in the power of Christ’s blood.

Natural Birth Context – When Nicodemus misunderstood Jesus’ statement about being "born again," he associated it with natural birth, asking, “Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (John 3:4). This shows Nicodemus was thinking in purely earthly terms. However, Jesus corrects this misunderstanding by explaining that the new birth is a spiritual reality.

Why "Born of Water" Does Not Refer to Natural Birth​

Context of Spiritual Birth – Jesus was not speaking of physical, earthly things like natural birth, but rather spiritual rebirth. He emphasized that the new birth is essential to enter the Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom. Referring to natural birth here would be redundant since all humans have already experienced natural birth. Jesus is elevating the conversation to the spiritual realm.

Baptism as Spiritual Cleansing – In a symbolic, spiritual sense, "born of water" refers to the act of baptism in Jesus’ name. The water baptism signifies a cleansing from sin and a commitment to following Christ. This is distinct from natural birth because it is an act of faith and repentance that is essential for spiritual transformation. Paul connects this idea in Romans 6:4, where he describes baptism as being buried with Christ into His death and being raised to walk in newness of life.

Parallel to John’s Baptism – The act of baptism is deeply connected to John the Baptist’s ministry, which was a baptism of repentance in preparation for the coming of Christ. Jesus builds on this foundation but points to a greater spiritual reality in baptism in His name, where the old life is symbolically washed away, and a new spiritual life begins.

Born of Water (Baptism) and Born of the Spirit​

The "born of water" component represents what we do (Earthly Things) in response to the Gospel: we repent and are baptized in Jesus' name for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism is the external act of obedience that symbolizes the internal change brought by repentance. This is our participation in the new birth.

"Born of the Spirit," on the other hand, is what only Christ can do (Heavenly Things). It refers to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit of Christ indwells and transforms the believer into a new creation (Romans 8:9). This spiritual rebirth empowers the believer to live a life aligned with the Kingdom of God. Jesus draws a distinction between what man can do (baptism in water) and what God alone can do (baptism of the Spirit).

 

[JLB]

And, knowing that "born again" refers to spiritual birth, then you must necessarily agree that if a baby is never born, then it cannot be born again and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Exactly. Which means, according to your understanding of "born by water," all unborn children cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Where does Jesus give that caveat to Nicodemus?


So, what you’re implying is, Nicodemus was right and adults have to be physically born again so they can become little children, correct? If not, then you need to explain exactly what Jesus meant by becoming "as little children."

The point is, if by “born of water” Jesus meant physical birth, then either one must be physically born or physical birth is not what Jesus was meaning. You can’t just go adding caveats that Jesus didn’t state. By doing so, you have made his statement of the (supposed) necessity of being physically born completely meaningless. If the unborn go into the kingdom of God, then it goes without saying that to be born again one must already be physically born. Jesus should then have just said, "unless one is born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Why also add "born of water" if it's to state the obvious and so be pointless?

Born of water refers to natural birth.

Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.

Jesus contextually taught this as we see in verse 6 —

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

Verse 6 teaches us the two different “births” that are referenced is His teaching to Nicodemus.

 

[Free]

I have explained, with scripture, three times now what I believe about little children which includes unborn children entering the kingdom of God.


I believe little children, which includes unborn children do enter the kingdom of God upon their death because they are innocent.

Which isn't the actual issue I'm addressing, as I pointed out. It's just a problem for your initial argument.

Again, your argument is that "born of water" refers to physical birth. However, as I have pointed out, you say that the unborn enter the kingdom of God. Those are contradictory. You have Jesus saying that in order to enter the kingdom of God, a person must be physically born, but you're saying that a person doesn't have to be physically born to enter the kingdom of God. That is issue, and it points to your claim that "born of water" refers to physical birth as incorrect.

Born of water refers to natural birth.

Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.

Jesus contextually taught this as we see in verse 6 —

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

Verse 6 teaches us the two different “births” that are referenced is His teaching to Nicodemus.

Here is the contradiction in your understanding stated again. Jesus clearly stated, "unless one is born of water . . . he cannot enter the kingdom of God." That clearly means those not born of water "cannot enter the kingdom of God." But, you're saying that those not born of water can enter the kingdom of God.

This shows that "born of water" must mean something else. It's either that or the unborn actually cannot enter the kingdom of God. Those are your two choices.

 

[Corinth77777]

In John 3:5, Jesus states, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." This scripture reflects both natural and spiritual realities that intertwine within the new birth. Here, Jesus introduces Nicodemus to a deeper understanding of spiritual rebirth beyond natural comprehension.

Let’s break this down, considering both the symbolism of water and the work of the Spirit, while aligning it with John's baptism and Christ's instructions.

The question here is why do you think it has to align?
Isn't Exegesis important

Born of Water and Spirit​

1. "Born of Water" – This has symbolic and spiritual significance, not merely pointing to physical water as in baptism, but deeper to the concept of cleansing, renewal, and repentance, a continual theme in Jesus’ ministry and

1. John’s. Just as John’s baptism symbolizes repentance and the washing away of sin,

But isn't it a baptism unto repentance- what does that look like "unto"
But let me add something Im thinking:

Anytime I see a type of system implimented
It usually comes under some outward sign.
All these in my opinion lead one into understanding of, like I believe you said in so many words- the process or step for a particular achievement. ( for lack of a better word)

Repentance being one step

I am speculating that baptism then is: Acceptence of or identification with a teaching you have submitted yourself to in the name of the one who arbitrates

<note to self- water of the word>

Now this is some real Speculatory stuff:
All 3 symbols seem to represent unseen realities

As repent, believe, receive..
Which if in the end that's what you were trying to say then that makes sense.

I speculate myself that to be baptized in the name of Jesus is to understand His nature the holy trinity. .

But as for 1st Peter 3:21, in which I have multiple thoughts on after reading it so many times in different versions, the meaning could be how one is now continually saved. But heads up question: Were those in 1st Peter already water baptized?

If so, then if I may equate baptism with identification and even immersion, Then I would speculate that the Baptism that save us now is into His Life. For scripture does say if we walk in the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all righteousness.

And one of the very thing you can see in that context is that He being Quicken by the Holy Spirit went and spoke to the souls in Prison.

How did that Happen, how did Jesus come to speak back in Noah's Day? Sounds like because it was the place in which He resided, in the Father maybe?

But that is Just one explanation if those He was speaking to had already been water Baptized.

For our answer, request or appeal to God for a clear conscience is found by the resurrection of Jesus Christ which went into heaven and is at the right hand of the father.

Hence, would make the baptism that saves us now, having a clear conscience before God, and even in the presence of our enemies, not water but our identification with where Jesus sits and who He is next to. For Happy are ye if you suffer for doing what is right. The Joy of the Lord is our Salvation.

1. being "born of water" reflects a spiritual turning point where the individual is cleansed from sin, a preparatory state for new life. It’s important to understand this as not being water baptism itself, but the act of turning from sin and beginning the process of new birth, which includes spiritual cleansing that aligns with baptism's purpose of public repentance.
2. "Born of Spirit" – The second essential element is the spiritual rebirth. This refers to the indwelling and transformation brought about by the Holy Spirit. Symbolically, water alone does not bring life; it is the Spirit that quickens and gives eternal life. In This reflects the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit), filling and empowering the believer. Jesus was pointing Nicodemus to the necessity of being born again by the indwelling Spirit, a transformation that makes one alive to the Kingdom of God.

John’s Baptism and the Disciples Baptizing​

• John’s Baptism – John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, a precursor to the fuller work of spiritual renewal through Christ. It was a symbolic washing away of the old self, preparing people for the coming Messiah. The importance of repentance was foundational for the new birth, but John himself declared that the One coming after him (Christ) would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11). This shows that John's baptism was incomplete without the Spirit, which is why Jesus introduces both elements—water and Spirit—to Nicodemus.
• Christ’s Disciples Baptizing – Jesus had His disciples baptize people (John 3:22), but this was more an extension of John's work of repentance. However, Jesus emphasized that the true fulfillment of baptism would come through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was later poured out on the Day of Pentecost. Water baptism, under the disciples' ministry at this point, was a symbol of repentance, while the Spiritual baptism was the deeper transformation yet to come, foreshadowing the new birth through the Spirit.

The Symbolic Unity​

The water and Spirit are unified in their work. Water symbolizes repentance and cleansing, while the Spirit signifies transformation and new life. Together, they form the complete rebirth process. God operates both as Father (the source), Son (manifested in the flesh to redeem), and Spirit (indwelling and transforming). The oneness of God is seen here, as the act of repentance (through John's and the disciples' baptisms) sets the stage for the Spirit of Christ (Holy Spirit) to transform believers into new creations.

Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ​

Later, in the Book of Acts, this baptismal formula would be fully revealed, with baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts 2:38) being connected to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, making the new birth complete. The disciples were baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit was being poured out on those who repented and were baptized.

In conclusion, John 3:5 is not strictly referring to baptismal regeneration but rather to the full process of spiritual rebirth that involves both repentance (symbolized by water) and transformation (through the Spirit). This aligns perfectly with the understanding of God manifesting through Christ and His Spirit, bringing about full new birth through His divine work in us.

 

[Corinth77777]

And, knowing that "born again" refers to spiritual birth, then you must necessarily agree that if a baby is never born, then it cannot be born again and therefore cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Free
Why would the condition for understanding how we can use the resources from heaven to take part in building the kingdom while we are alive, even matter.

Exactly. Which means, according to your understanding of "born by water," all unborn children cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Where does Jesus give that caveat to Nicodemus?


So, what you’re implying is, Nicodemus was right and adults have to be physically born again so they can become little children, correct? If not, then you need to explain exactly what Jesus meant by becoming "as little children."

The point is, if by “born of water” Jesus meant physical birth, then either one must be physically born or physical birth is not what Jesus was meaning. You can’t just go adding caveats that Jesus didn’t state. By doing so, you have made his statement of the (supposed) necessity of being physically born completely meaningless. If the unborn go into the kingdom of God, then it goes without saying that to be born again one must already be physically born. Jesus should then have just said, "unless one is born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Why also add "born of water" if it's to state the obvious and so be pointless?

 

[JLB]

In John 3:5, Jesus’ statement "born of water and the Spirit" is often interpreted by some to refer to natural birth when referencing the "water" (amniotic fluid during childbirth). However, this "water" is not a reference to physical birth but rather to spiritual cleansing through baptism, specifically baptism in Jesus’ name. Let’s unpack why this refers to baptism and not natural birth, while maintaining a distinction between what we do (being baptized-Earthly Things) and what Christ does (filling us with the Holy Spirit-Heavenly Things).

​

Water as Spiritual Cleansing – Throughout the New Testament, "water" often represents spiritual cleansing, especially in the context of baptism. In Acts 2:38, Peter explicitly commands repentance and baptism in Jesus’ name for the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is not a symbolic ritual of natural birth but a deliberate act of identifying with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, where sins are washed away. This "born of water" refers to the baptism in Jesus' name, which brings about spiritual purification through faith in the power of Christ’s blood.

Natural Birth Context – When Nicodemus misunderstood Jesus’ statement about being "born again," he associated it with natural birth, asking, “Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” (John 3:4). This shows Nicodemus was thinking in purely earthly terms. However, Jesus corrects this misunderstanding by explaining that the new birth is a spiritual reality.

Why "Born of Water" Does Not Refer to Natural Birth​

Context of Spiritual Birth – Jesus was not speaking of physical, earthly things like natural birth, but rather spiritual rebirth. He emphasized that the new birth is essential to enter the Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom. Referring to natural birth here would be redundant since all humans have already experienced natural birth. Jesus is elevating the conversation to the spiritual realm.

Baptism as Spiritual Cleansing – In a symbolic, spiritual sense, "born of water" refers to the act of baptism in Jesus’ name. The water baptism signifies a cleansing from sin and a commitment to following Christ. This is distinct from natural birth because it is an act of faith and repentance that is essential for spiritual transformation. Paul connects this idea in Romans 6:4, where he describes baptism as being buried with Christ into His death and being raised to walk in newness of life.

Parallel to John’s Baptism – The act of baptism is deeply connected to John the Baptist’s ministry, which was a baptism of repentance in preparation for the coming of Christ. Jesus builds on this foundation but points to a greater spiritual reality in baptism in His name, where the old life is symbolically washed away, and a new spiritual life begins.

Born of Water (Baptism) and Born of the Spirit​

The "born of water" component represents what we do (Earthly Things) in response to the Gospel: we repent and are baptized in Jesus' name for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism is the external act of obedience that symbolizes the internal change brought by repentance. This is our participation in the new birth.

"Born of the Spirit," on the other hand, is what only Christ can do (Heavenly Things). It refers to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit of Christ indwells and transforms the believer into a new creation (Romans 8:9). This spiritual rebirth empowers the believer to live a life aligned with the Kingdom of God. Jesus draws a distinction between what man can do (baptism in water) and what God alone can do (baptism of the Spirit).

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:3-6


Please point out where Jesus mentioned “baptized” or “baptism” in this teaching.


Futhermore Jesus plainly said He used earthly things to teach Nicodemus heavenly things.


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


The “earthly” thing Jesus referred to here in His teaching about being born again was natural birth.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


That which is born of the flesh is flesh… refers to natural birth.


Here is my 3 points —

1. Jesus was teaching about birth; spiritual and natural birth, not baptism.
2. Jesus contextually referred to natural birth in verse 6 after mentioning being born of water in verse 5.
3. Jesus used earthly things, natural birth, to teach heavenly things, spiritual birth.

 

[Corinth77777]

Born or water is just what it implies - your born of your mother; natural birth.

Jesus uses natural birth (earthly things) to teach Nicodemus about spiritual birth (heavenly things).

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

Verse 6, contextually show us His thought process in this teaching.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

JLB

I agree -

 

[Free]

Free
Why would the condition for understanding how we can use the resources from heaven to take part in building the kingdom while we are alive, even matter.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

 

[Corinth77777]

Sorry, I don't understand what you're asking.

What part would an unborn child have to do with others being able to see the kingdom at hand, where it seems to only matter for the living?

 

[Free]

What part would an unborn child have to do with others being able to see the kingdom at hand, where it seems to only matter for the living?

Sorry, I still don’t understand what you’re asking.

 

[My Rock]

Please point out where Jesus mentioned “baptized” or “baptism” in this teaching.

Are you not baptized in water when baptized in His name?

 

[My Rock]

The “earthly” thing Jesus referred to here in His teaching about being born again was natural birth.

I very clearly showed what is meant by Earthly and Heavenly things menas.

 

[JLB]

Are you not baptized in water when baptized in His name?

Being baptized into Christ by the Spirit and being baptized in water in Jesus Name are two different baptisms.

 

[JLB]

I very clearly showed what is meant by Earthly and Heavenly things menas.

The earthly thing is natural birth; born of flesh.

This is irrefutable.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit…
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?



Baptism is not mentioned in this discussion.

 

[My Rock]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh

Has nothing to do with what Jesus meant by born again of water.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why?

Can you show some scriptures from Acts where someone "called on the name of the Lord" that were not during water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of past sins ?

Your the one adding to the text not me. It was defined by Paul: because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord10 and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

And you will be, if you turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Jesus forgave sin in the gospels and He never added anything in addition required to that forgiveness He did state, "Your faith has saved you" So faith is the key not water baptism. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is NOT a must to be saved.If you reasoned anything about anyone calling on the Lord wouldn't that be male, female, gentile, Jew? ALL peoples not just jews.

Without faith, none of the Lord's commands are doable.
Without faith, we won't turn permanently from sin.
Without faith, our baptism in the name of the Lord won't wash away past sins.
Without faith, we will never endure faithfully until the end.

I'm stating the authority lies with the Lord not man. I not against baptism. I believe those who believe and are baptized will be saved.

Man must react to what the Lord has provided...to be saved.

Wrong the HS wasn't poured out before the cross. People believed in Him.

? What does the Holy Spirit have to do with what I posted ?

I have no doctrine just answering the OP.

Your doctrine is that water baptism in the name of the Lord is not necessary for salvation.
I disagree.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Continued labelling of other people's doctrines as "false" rather than simply debating the issue will result in a forum ban. It forces others to respond in kind and leads the dicussion into spiritual immaturity. See that it is corrected please.

If you wish to discuss it, take it up with staff in TWTS.

Thanks,
Hidden

Thanks H'.
I don't need the adjectives to get the gospel across to others.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Has nothing to do with what Jesus meant by born again of water.

We are not born again of water, as we were born of water the first time.
The second birth is of the Spirit.

 

[My Rock]

We are not born again of water, as we were born of water the first time.

John 3:3 Jesus says born again. 3:5 Jesus states what born again is water and spirit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John 3:3 Jesus says born again. 3:5 Jesus states what born again is water and spirit.

You are misreading it.
John 3:5..."Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Man is naturally born of water.
The rebirth is of the Spirit.

If rebirth is of both water and Spirit, what was the first birth of ?