Is baptism required for salvation?

[Johann!@#]

i searched the scriptures and the bereans are wrong and not authorized apostles or the church established by Christ on Peter!

Glad to hear you read the article.

J.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

i searched the scriptures and the bereans are wrong and not authorized apostles or the church established by Christ on Peter!

Acts 17:11
10 hen the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

This is what happens when you put yourself under men, who tell you to listen to them only.

The bereans did not say that so how are they wrong?

paul said. it. so I guess than apostle paul was wrong?

One thing is for sure. you just proved not only did you not search the scripture. you also show you do not know it.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Got to love, people can cut and paste and make it appear they know the word.

And I guess we should heed what they say?

 

[donadams]

Do any scriptures teach that infants were sprinkled with water for baptism?

the church established by Christ does!

therefore it's biblical!

If you believe scripture you would believe the teaching of the apostolic church which alone possesses the authority of Jesus Christ in union with Jesus Christ! matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:1-8

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

The sects of errors are the darkness of Thick black scales of fundamentalism!

All the tradition of men!





Sacred scripture teaches that many of the same things apply to the apostolic church as it does Christ!

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19
acts 16:17


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!


just cos scripture depicts immersion does not mean thats the only acceptable method!

thks

 

[donadams]

The teachings of Catholicism are not biblically.

No where did the scriptures teach us to “sprinkle infants” for baptism.

No where did Jesus command for a Roman Vatican to be built and a pagan sun god obelisk to be erected, and prayers to be made to Mary or other human being, or Rosary beads, or bowing down to statues of “saints”, or indulgences, or forbidding priests to marry…

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry.
1 Timothy 4:1-2

did Christ establish the church to teach & sanctify all men? matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

The teachings of Catholicism are not biblically.

No where did the scriptures teach us to “sprinkle infants” for baptism.

No where did Jesus command for a Roman Vatican to be built and a pagan sun god obelisk to be erected, and prayers to be made to Mary or other human being, or Rosary beads, or bowing down to statues of “saints”, or indulgences, or forbidding priests to marry…

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry.
1 Timothy 4:1-2

1 tim 4:1-2 refers to the albigensian's who had two gods one spiritual and good one material and evil so they never married

anyone in the Catholic church can marry

celibacy is a disciple not a doctrine Christ and Paul?
Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
(charity rewarded 100 fold)

rosary beads are not a requirement

do you have a problem with christian meditation on the life death and resurrection of Christ?

thks

 

[Walpole]

Acts 17:11
10 hen the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

This is what happens when you put yourself under men, who tell you to listen to them only.

The bereans did not say that so how are they wrong?

paul said. it. so I guess than apostle paul was wrong?

One thing is for sure. you just proved not only did you not search the scripture. you also show you do not know it.

Berea was an Greek-speaking city in what is now north-central Greece; the scriptures that they studied were logically the Greek Septuagint. According to Acts many Jews and Greeks believed as result of Paul and Silas's teaching. The fact the Greeks (probably God-fearers) were part of the synagogue community further demonstrates that the Greek scriptures were what the Bereans examined.

In addition, Paul and Silas's preaching had to be extra-biblical teaching since the books of the New Testament had not been written, and a complete version of the New Testament was centuries away. The gospel that Paul and Silas preached was only available in spoken form. Thus the description in Acts shows the validity of the Septuagint scriptures and the value of extra-biblical teachings, both of which violate the modern doctrine of sola scriptura.

For reference here are the verses from Acts about the trip to Berea:

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing. Acts 17:10-12

The gospel only existed in spoken form, so that was the extra-biblical teaching.


I always find it humorous when Evangelicals try to lay claim to the Bereans, given that there has NEVER been a Protestant church in Berea (modern day Veria), EVER.

Evangelical Protestants live in a fantasy world. Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, churches, baptistries (yes, Christians always believed in WATER baptism), the saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. The same cannot be said for Protestants.

 

[Eternally-grateful]

Berea was an Greek-speaking city in what is now north-central Greece; the scriptures that they studied were logically the Greek Septuagint. According to Acts many Jews and Greeks believed as result of Paul and Silas's teaching. The fact the Greeks (probably God-fearers) were part of the synagogue community further demonstrates that the Greek scriptures were what the Bereans examined.

In addition, Paul and Silas's preaching had to be extra-biblical teaching since the books of the New Testament had not been written, and a complete version of the New Testament was centuries away. The gospel that Paul and Silas preached was only available in spoken form. Thus the description in Acts shows the validity of the Septuagint scriptures and the value of extra-biblical teachings, both of which violate the modern doctrine of sola scriptura.

For reference here are the verses from Acts about the trip to Berea:

That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea; and when they arrived, they went to the Jewish synagogue. These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, including not a few Greek women and men of high standing. Acts 17:10-12

The gospel only existed in spoken form, so that was the extra-biblical teaching.


I always find it humorous when Evangelicals try to lay claim to the Bereans, given that there has NEVER been a Protestant church in Berea (modern day Veria), EVER.

Evangelical Protestants live in a fantasy world. Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. I can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, churches, baptistries (yes, Christians always believed in WATER baptism), the saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, epitaphs, art work, names of her opponents, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. The same cannot be said for Protestants.

I am confused.

Paul said they did not takes pauls words as gospel truth (they did not trust man) but they used the word to test that what he said and the word of God were in agreement.

I have now I guess had to catholics say things that have no bearing on my argument

1. Said the bereans were wrong.,

and

2. I have no idea what this post has to do with what I said..

and I am supposed to look to the catholic church for truth?

 

[Walpole]

I am confused.

Paul said they did not takes pauls words as gospel truth (they did not trust man) but they used the word to test that what he said and the word of God were in agreement.

I have now I guess had to catholics say things that have no bearing on my argument

1. Said the bereans were wrong.,

and

2. I have no idea what this post has to do with what I said..

and I am supposed to look to the catholic church for truth?

I guess you missed the point. Here it is...

---> The Bereans were not sola-scriptura proto-Protestants. Fortunately, the Bereans did not practice sola Scripture. Otherwise, they would have been the first to oppose the teachings of Saint Paul, and later his epistles when they were being first distributed amongst the Churches.

 

[donadams]

thats called salvation. which we recieve by trusting in him (john 1, john 3)

receiving Christ by faith alone does not make you a child of God with union in Christ!

but the abilty to do so!

Jn 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

fishes born again in the waters of baptism!

the inward washing of grace is not possible ordinarily without the outward washing of baptism!

Born again by “Faith & baptism”!

“Baptismal regeneration” is the initiation into the new covenant!
Jn 3:5 cannot enter!
2 pet 1:11 an entrance shall be ministered unto you!

A sacrament is the fruit of the sacrifice of Christ, an outward (visible) sign that signifies what it accomplishes inward spirituality. (invisible)

we cannot ordinarily have the inward action of grace without the outward sacrament of baptism!

Washing ez 36:25-27 zech 13:1 acts 22:16 titus 3:5

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

The sacraments are signs of God’s grace!

The grace of justification in the power of the spirit is manifested by the sign of baptism!

Jesus Christ is the sign and the sacrament!

and there is no anointing by "faith alone"!

we are priests prophets and kings and the covenant requires an outward sign, and
anointing with oil, (psalm 23:5) and sealed by God.
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit!

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism!

"faith alone" has

no outward sign:

no anointing:

no seal:

thks

 

[donadams]

there may be,

but its not the church we call the roman catholic church. or as I call it. Pagan rome

then what is CTR and the JW's

Christ and His church conquered the pagan roman empire!

The new covenant church!

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5 (holy mother church is the new Jerusalem the kingdom) gal 4:26 (one church) Jn 10:16

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesar’s) shall the God of heaven Is set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 6:26
I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.

Daniel 7:14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;


we have no pagan practices!

 

[donadams]

Does Peter and paul not tell us to look to scripture to test all spirits. and not follow men. because even in their day, false teachers and prophets were already sneaking in and turning people from Christ?

the church would follow the word of God. not privately interpreted or falsely instituted doctrines not supported by scripture

whats matt 6:33 say?

 

[donadams]

Does Peter and paul not tell us to look to scripture to test all spirits. and not follow men. because even in their day, false teachers and prophets were already sneaking in and turning people from Christ?

the church would follow the word of God. not privately interpreted or falsely instituted doctrines not supported by scripture

there must be obedience to men (apostles) acctto Christ and scripture
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Apostles commanded to teach!

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Jn 20:21
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Lk 22:29
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Apostles remain unto the end of the world and the ends of the earth
Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:8

Authority:

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 acts 1:8 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

 

[donadams]

Does Peter and paul not tell us to look to scripture to test all spirits. and not follow men. because even in their day, false teachers and prophets were already sneaking in and turning people from Christ?

the church would follow the word of God. not privately interpreted or falsely instituted doctrines not supported by scripture

Where does scripture say we have authority to read the bible for ourselves and decide doctrine on our own?


Christians must be taught or instructed, according to the sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed, as commanded by Christ! Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:1-8

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

The Holy Spirit leads the apostles into all truth (Jn 16:13) they must teach us! (Matt 28:19)

Lk 1:4
Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
matt 16:18-19
matt 18:17-18
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 2:42
Acts 16:17
Acts 8:31
Titus 1:9
Titus 2:12
Phil 4:9
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

No Christian has the authority to read scripture for yourself and decide your own doctrines or beliefs! “One faith” Eph 4:5 Thee faith once handed to the saints” Jude 1:3

 

[donadams]

Does Peter and paul not tell us to look to scripture to test all spirits. and not follow men. because even in their day, false teachers and prophets were already sneaking in and turning people from Christ?

the church would follow the word of God. not privately interpreted or falsely instituted doctrines not supported by scripture

Christ founded the apostolic church to teach (truth revealed by Christ) and sanctify (administer the grace of baptism) all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19-20
the church has the authority of Christ in union with Christ!

Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable authority & unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:4-5 eph 5:24 Jn 20:21-23
(The apostolic church possesses the authority of Christ, it is Christ acting thru His church)
matt 28:19-20

 

[donadams]

Does Peter and paul not tell us to look to scripture to test all spirits. and not follow men. because even in their day, false teachers and prophets were already sneaking in and turning people from Christ?

the church would follow the word of God. not privately interpreted or falsely instituted doctrines not supported by scripture

If you believe scripture you would believe the teaching of the apostolic church which alone possesses the authority of Jesus Christ in union with Jesus Christ! matt 28:19-20 matt 16:18:19 Jn 20:21-23 acts 1:1-8

Christ is the light! (Truth)
Jn 8:12

The church he founded is also the light as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 5:14

Christ is the teacher!
Heb 1:1-3

The church He founded is also our teacher as an extension and command of Christ! Matt 18:17

Christ is the truth!
Jn 14:6

The church He founded is also the pillar of truth as an extension and command of Christ! 1 tim 3:15

The sects of errors are the darkness of Thick black scales of fundamentalism!

All the tradition of men!





Sacred scripture teaches that many of the same things apply to the apostolic church as it does Christ!

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19
acts 16:17


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!




Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:8

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

thks

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Infants have no capacity to believe.

Only those who believe with all their heart are qualified to be fully immersed in water baptism.

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:36-38


Infant baptism is unbiblical.

Infants are innocent.

there is nothing in scripture which tells us to baptize infants..

Guys, I wasn't defending infant baptism, I was just explaining their practice of sprinkling instead of dunking, of course neither is biblical, and neither is necessary for salvation. Don't throw the book at me.

 

[Walpole]

Guys, I wasn't defending infant baptism, I was just explaining their practice of sprinkling instead of dunking, of course neither is biblical, and neither is necessary for salvation. Don't throw the book at me.

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

Our Blessed Lord said you MUST be born of the water and the Spirit. Christians call this baptism. Just like at Jesus' baptism, where He went into the water and the Spirit came upon Him, so too is what happens in Christian baptism.

If you don't even believe baptism actually does that which Scripture says it does, then arguing about the volume of water used like whether to immerse or sprinkle someone is entirely moot.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).

If you don't even believe baptism actually does that which Scripture says it does (see above), then arguing about the volume of water used like whether to immerse or sprinkle someone is entirely moot.

Baptism is an initiation ritual of your induction into a church community, a public declaration of your faith in Christ. As you said, if you don't believe in Christ in the first place, you just join the church for tradition or worldly benefits, then baptism is meaningless and useless. I made the analogy of wedding ceremony, a public declaration - and celebration - of your union with your spouse. But does it mark the beginning of your marriage? Actually, no. What does? In modern time, marriage license; in ancient time, betrothal.

See the example below, the Samaritans were baptized, but not born again until they received the holy spirit from the apostles.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:14-17)

 

[Randy]

If clergy baptize anyone they are baptized as they have authority from Christ to baptize. No one can know that the Lord is indifferent to such a baptizm as prayers are offered up by the church as well. It's just the beginning anyway. Steering the child to Christ and raising them up in the faith has great importance as well. I was baptized as an infant and steered to Jesus from my beginning by Christain parents. I have loved the Lord and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I know Him and am known by Him. He knows me well. I have had answers from Him with words in my mind. The Spirit to my spirit though I am not anyone special or in authority. When I was very young I prayed over and over I wanted to see Him. Meaning His face. Well that didn't happen but He answered my prayers in another manner. He has shown Himself to me by the Spirit. He answers prayers and He is one on Gods throne and I am a nobody. Ha!

Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

So no harm came to me by being baptized as a infant.