Is belief "works"?

[veryberry]

What is genuine salvation? It's a salvation that is for real, not presumed to be real but which really isn't real. Works are the outward manifestation of a legitimate hope for salvation. Lack of works indicate a presumed hope of salvation. Of course, I'm speaking in generalities.

I see what ya mean here.

Yes. But as we see in Genesis 22, when Abraham raises his knife to slay Isaac, God exclaims, "Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son" (Genesis 22:12 NIV).

We know he said this for our benefit, not because he suddenly knew Abraham truly feared and believed him. God knows the end from the beginning about all things. Validation of faith is for us, but God is just and he will use the deeds of men as the evidence for the judgment, good or bad, he pronounces on them. Not for his benefit, but for the sake of all of creation.

Agreed, We dont want our works to burn up.

There's more to it than that. We are exhorted to 'make our calling and election sure' by doing works of faith. The Bible teaches that we can find comfort in knowing we are at peace with God and have the sure hope of salvation by if we obey his commands, specifically, his command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. When we do that we know we have passed from death to life.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other." (1 John 3:14 NIV)

In 2 Peter 1:10, He was warning Christians of false teachers and was encouraging them to have faith and knowlegde of Christ. He was saying that your works back up your calling and election. I would say this falls under, works validating our faith and the building up of the Church.

In 1 John, He is reassuring Christians in their faith and to counter false teachings. In 1 John 3, talks about loving one another and shows that we are children of God. This also falls under, works validating our faith and the building up the Church.

Just so we understand. Works are only a part of salvation in that only the faith that produces works can save a person. A faith that does not work is the faith that can not save.

I totally agree with this. Its just that when you put "works must be a part of salvation", it concerned me because it seemed legalistic when you put "must" and "part of salvation". But it seems that you have the understanding of salvation is by faith alone apart from works. So I think we are on the same page. Keep spreading the good news (in my Hulk Hogan voice) Brother.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

The bible does not equate "belief" to works. There are those that are so adamant that even though we are under a covenant of grace we are still required to do good works in order to be saved. This is completely false. Good works comes after we are saved as an act of worship to God and praise for the awesome gift He bestowed upon us.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Maybe you had better reconsider that doing something to be saved is not a falsehood.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

James 2:24 (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Paul refers to works which are excluded from God's plan to save, James discusses works which are included in it. Those excluded, discussed by Paul, are works in which one might glory (exult in, boast of). The works included (mentioned by James) are those which perfect faith. The first one, works of which a man might boast and in which he might glory, are human, meritorious works, works of human achievement, works of which is to earn salvation.

The works included, and told by James, are the commandments of the Lord. Obedience to which is necessary for salvation. 1 John 2:4, 2 Thess 1:7-9.

Humble submission to the will of God as expressed in his commandments, far from involving works of the type excluded, (boastful works) , show complete reliance upon God, and not upon one's self. Only those who seek to exclude all work, even the commandments of the Lord, such as baptism in water for the remission of sins Mark 16:15-16, have a hard time harmonizing Paul and James. Paul taught the necessity of obedience to the commands of Christ as plainly and positively as did James. Rom 6:3-4.

All of the apostles teach that it is necessary to only obey a command that is also a law to be saved.

 

[Knotical]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Maybe you had better reconsider that doing something to be saved is not a falsehood.

The only "something" that someone does in regard to salvation is respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit. This is not a "work" as many have stated.

Also, the verse, of which you conspicuously did not include the context, you referenced does not refer to "works" either, but evidence of the Holy Spirit working in them.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

The only "something" that someone does in regard to salvation is respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit. This is not a "work" as many have stated.

Also, the verse, of which you conspicuously did not include the context, you referenced does not refer to "works" either, but evidence of the Holy Spirit working in them.

So then that particular statement is false? Reading Rom. 2: beginning with "God will give to each person according to what he has done." thru 16 I don't see any mention of "but evidence of the Holy Spirit working in them". Maybe the Holy Spirit calls people to obey some law you don't believe exist? I'm am sure that you are much more religious and learned than I am. Do you think it might be possible that some change or modification of the law took place?

 

[dadof10]

Justification in regard to showing one to be righteous:

"19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed." (Romans 8:19 NIV)

We see this in Matthew 25:31-46 where Jesus puts the righteous on his right side and the unrighteous on his left, thus revealing and showing who is righteous, and who is not, their (lawful) work being the evidence of their righteousness or unrighteousness.

Right. "Shown to be righteous" rears it's convenient head yet again. This interpretation has no basis of fact in the context of the verses.

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."

"God's righteous judgment" has NOTHING to do with showing righteousness. Right before he says God's judgment will be revealed, he says "Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance". It is blatantly obvious that Paul means that God's judgment (eternal life or wrath and fury) will be revealed, not that the SAVED PEOPLE will be revealed. Where do you get this from the text? This is ludicrous.

We know this because, unlike in the passage where Jesus was speaking, Paul plainly says the word 'justified'. But as I say, if you remove it from the conclusion in the next chapter that nobody is justified (made righteous) by the law you will indeed come to your short sided conclusion that obedience to the law is how a person is made righteous. But Paul is making the case that no one can do that. Therefore, justification must come as a free gift from God...by faith, all by itself, apart from work.

Why can't you simply deal with the words HERE, in this passage? Why do you have to skip ahead to the next chapter to interpret the words here? They mean what they say. To interpret this in light of your subjective "whole council of Scripture" or in light of what's said an entire chapter later, shows you can't reconcile the words here with your theology.

Paul says that God gives eternal life to "those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality". This is simple and straightforward.

Paul explained it plainly. Faith in the promise made to Abraham is what justifies a person.

Great, then Abraham was justified in Gen. 12 and again in Gen. 15, proving that justification is a process, not a one time event. This is your main error, thinking justification is a one time event.

Faith does the justifying, not the righteous work that faith upholds.

The works faith produces is what validates that faith as the faith that justifies. That's how and why works must be a part of a genuine salvation, but not be the actual agent that makes a person righteous. Faith does that all by itself.

The error is thinking just because justifying faith changes a person into someone who does work, the work itself must do the justifying. It's just plain bad logic. Especially since Paul PLAINLY says faith in the promise is what justifies, contrasting it with trying to be justified by doing righteous work. Contrasted because believing in the promises made to Abraham to be justified is simply not a work of the law. The way of lawful work to be made righteous and the way of faith in the promises to be made righteous are two distinctly different things. Justification is by believing, not working. No one can be justified by working. It's impossible. That's Paul's point.

Is this supposed to be an exegesis on Rom. 2: 6-7? If it is, it bears no resemblance to Paul's simple straightforward teaching that God JUSTIFIES those who show "patience in well-doing".

If you disagree that Paul means "justified" by "eternal life", just answer the questions in the post you ignored above. Show me how Isaac, Jacob and Cornelius were justified, yet the Thief wasn't, because it doesn't use the word "justified" or "declared righteous".

 

[Knotical]

So then that particular statement is false? Reading Rom. 2: beginning with "God will give to each person according to what he has done." thru 16 I don't see any mention of "but evidence of the Holy Spirit working in them". Maybe the Holy Spirit calls people to obey some law you don't believe exist? I'm am sure that you are much more religious and learned than I am. Do you think it might be possible that some change or modification of the law took place?

Nice twisting of words, there. What is being referred to in that passage is the rewards one will receive based on whether they seek them on this earth or in heaven.

 

[dadof10]

“You still lack one thing.

One thing? What one thing?

Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven;

"Sell all you have". That is the one thing.

"Still lack one thing" to accomplish what? Obviously eternal life.

Jesus says to keep the commandments and sell all you have, for eternal life. These are the actual words. Selling all that you have AND following Christ are TWO things, notice the semi-colon.

He then says "and come follow me". This isn't a condition for eternal life here.

This is Jesus telling him that he needs True Faith.

The words don't mention "true faith".

If the ruler had True Faith, he would have understood what Jesus was saying and would have gladly done it out of love.

Nowhere does Scripture say he didn't keep the commandments out of love, nor "in observance of the law", like you said in a previous post.

But if he would have done these acts, these acts would not have saved him but would have shown his True Faith, but instead he showed Dead Faith.

Scripture doesn't make this claim either. The ruler simply asked a question and got his answer. You are reading these notions into the text.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Maybe you had better reconsider that doing something to be saved is not a falsehood.

But doing something to be justified (besides 'believe', of course) is a falsehood, because no one can keep the law to be justified by that law, though you certainly would be if you could keep it. That's why Paul says in the very next chapter that "no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law" (Romans 3:20 NIV), but rather through the law "we become conscious of our sin" (Romans 3:20 NIV).

Paul says that what they insist is the way to be declared righteous before God is actually what makes them utterly unrighteous before God, which is why Paul says righteousness can only come by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6), as a free gift, not a reward for work. The ONLY way a mere mortal can be declared righteous is by faith in the blood of Christ that graciously (not meritoriously) removes his unrighteousness. It is impossible to do that through well-doing...because we are not perfect in our well-doing. It is not rightly dividing the Word of God to isolate Romans 2:13 all by itself out of the whole context of the point Paul is making in Romans.

Justification is by faith, all by itself.

Salvation is by the faith that justifies all by itself, but which can be seen in what a person does righteously.

Don't confuse the terms. They are not categorically interchangeable.

 

[Deborah13]

But doing something to be justified (besides 'believe', of course) is a falsehood, because no one can keep the law to be justified by that law, though you certainly would be if you could keep it. That's why Paul says in the very next chapter that "no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law" (Romans 3:20 NIV), but rather through the law "we become conscious of our sin" (Romans 3:20 NIV).

Paul says that what they insist is the way to be declared righteous before God is actually what makes them utterly unrighteous before God, which is why Paul says righteousness can only come by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6), as a free gift, not a reward for work. The ONLY way a mere mortal can be declared righteous is by faith in the blood of Christ that graciously (not meritoriously) removes his unrighteousness. It is impossible to do that through well-doing...because we are not perfect in our well-doing. It is not rightly dividing the Word of God to isolate Romans 2:13 all by itself out of the whole context of the point Paul is making in Romans.

Justification is by faith, all by itself.

Salvation is by the faith that justifies all by itself, but which can be seen in what a person does righteously.

Don't confuse the terms. They are not categorically interchangeable.

Jethro, this statement is very well put and to the very heart of the gospel message.

If one thinks that their works in anyway justify them unto salvation they are missing the understanding of the biggest blessing the Lord has given us as a gift. The blood of the Lamb shed once and only once for our justification unto salvation. It is the faith in the our Lord by that act of grace that changes the hard heart of man that he is enabled to do the works that he is called to do.

 

[Deborah13]

To those who consider citing from the next CHAPTER as not being valid, we need to remember... The original writing had no chapters or verses and need to be read as a continuous teaching until the subject matter or audience changes and must be considered as such. It is very important to take into consideration who the speaker is addressing and why. In other words read in context.

 

[veryberry]

One thing? What one thing?

"Sell all you have". That is the one thing.

"Still lack one thing" to accomplish what? Obviously eternal life.

Jesus said "you still lack ONE thing", then he said, "sell all you have AND give to the poor". That would be TWO things. Then Jesus does NOT say, That will give you eternal life. He says, "And you will have treasure in heaven."

Why does he say this? Because the works that we DO, do not give us eternal life, but are a result of our True faith which leads to eternal life, and we are judged by our works to determine our rewards in heaven.

The ONE thing Jesus was referring to when he said "you still lack ONE thing." was Not the TWO things that he was telling the ruler to do, but the two things that Jesus was telling the ruler to do would SHOW the one thing that the man lacked!

Jesus says to keep the commandments and sell all you have, for eternal life. These are the actual words. Selling all that you have AND following Christ are TWO things, notice the semi-colon.

The text does not bear out this interpretation. Those are certainly not his actual words. He does NOT say "keep the commandments and sell all you have, for eternal life." Nowhere does the text say this. selling all you have, giving to the poor and following Christ are actually THREE things.

He then says "and come follow me". This isn't a condition for eternal life here.

You are right on this one....following Jesus is a RESULT of true faith, following Jesus SHOWS your true faith...not a condition for eternal life.


Do you feel that your interpretation of these verses in Luke contridict with these other verses in the Bible? (If not then how do you interpret these verses?):

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 4:5 - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!â€

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Doesn't Paul say that Abraham was justified by faith the way we are? If so then weren't the OT people also under grace?

And Paul also said "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Problem #1 for the contemporary assumptive of salvation.

 

[farouk]

And Paul also said "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Problem #1 for the contemporary assumptive of salvation.

..but Romans 1.5 speaks of 'obedience to the faith', which is by grace anyway, and not meritorious.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And Paul also said "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Problem #1 for the contemporary assumptive of salvation.

Again, you are misrepresenting the Word of God and should be ashamed. The word is not "obey" but "doer," which does not carry a connotation of obedience. As you've been told, the word in the Greek is poietes, with the root poieo, which means to produce, or be an author. Poietes, in fact, is translated from the Koine Greek extrabiblically as "poem." One does not "obey" a poem, one "writes" a poem, and it is in this sense that we "do" the Law. We live it out, expressing it in our lives through our best efforts to interpret what Christ has done in our lives by "doing" as He did. That is what we're called to do, and it is shameful that you insist on deliberately using a word that is not in Paul's original writing of the verse, and equally shameful that you would make others live a list of legalisms it is impossible for you to live yourself.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus said "you still lack ONE thing", then he said, "sell all you have AND give to the poor". That would be TWO things.

Well, sell what you have and give it to the poor could be looked at as either one act or two, I guess. It's obvious that Jesus meant "one thing" since that is what He said. His point is that "one thing" more must be done to "inherit eternal life", and that one thing is NOT faith alone. He says the Ruler lacks "one thing", then says "sell...and give...". After that, He says "follow me", AFTER he has fulfilled the "one thing" that allows him to "inherit eternal life".

Then Jesus does NOT say, That will give you eternal life. He says, "And you will have treasure in heaven."

Why does he say this? Because the works that we DO, do not give us eternal life, but are a result of our True faith which leads to eternal life, and we are judged by our works to determine our rewards in heaven.

I'll ask again, "One thing you still lack" for what? What will this "one thing" complete? Obviously "inherit eternal life". There is no other way to interpret this. His answer ("you know the commandments") must refer to "inherit eternal life".

The ONE thing Jesus was referring to when he said "you still lack ONE thing." was Not the TWO things that he was telling the ruler to do, but the two things that Jesus was telling the ruler to do would SHOW the one thing that the man lacked!

Huh? "Show" again? Is this the "get out of jail free" card to the sola-fide crowd? Every time there is a verse that debunks justification by faith alone, it must mean "SHOWN to be..."? Sheesh... The man asked a simple question. This is wrenching the verse completely out of context. Where does it say "show" or even loosely reference demonstrate or reveal?

The text does not bear out this interpretation. Those are certainly not his actual words.

He does NOT say "keep the commandments and sell all you have, for eternal life." Nowhere does the text say this. selling all you have, giving to the poor and following Christ are actually THREE things.

His actual words to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" are "you know the commandments" and "one thing you still lack". The text does NOT say anything about "showing".

If you disagree with my interpretation, just tell me what Jesus is referencing when He says "One thing more you lack..." The Ruler lacks this one thing for what? What is he completing by doing this "one thing"? That is the question.

Do you feel that your interpretation of these verses in Luke contridict with these other verses in the Bible? (If not then how do you interpret these verses?):

Absolutely not.

Romans 3:28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Just what it says, we are justified apart from works OF THE LAW, not all deeds done in faith. By "works" or "works of the law" Paul means works of the Mosaic law, not charity, or baptism or keeping the commandments..

Romans 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Same here...

Romans 4:5 - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

...And here, specifically circumcision. The context of Romans 4 bears this out:

"Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised." (Rom. 4)

Galatians 2:16 - know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

...And here...

Galatians 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

...And here. These verses, and others like them, must be interpreted in light of the audience Paul was writing to, and the historical backdrop of the time. The first major controversy in the early Church (that we know of) was how Gentiles were to be accepted. Did they have to be circumcised according to the law? What parts of the law did they have to keep, if any? Acts 15 shows how big of a deal this was to the Church, because they called a council and the decisions reached were binding on ALL the faithful, not just the Church in Antioch

"As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem." (Acts 6:4)

If Paul's letters are not interpreted in this light, you will miss his MAJOR point, which is justification is not by keeping the Mosaic law, but by faith in Christ. Paul doesn't even have "keeping the commandments" or charity or baptism in mind when writing the verses above. He is speaking specifically to an audience which he lived with, talked to personally and knew very well. They are right in the middle of this controversy and they even have some "Judiazers" in their midst.

This is the proper interpretation of Paul's "faith vs. works" verses. I know what comes next, the old "the commandments ARE the law" take. Before we go down this road, just remember that "faith" is also part of the law, yet Paul does not mean faith when he says "WORKS of the law", so there are exceptions, therefore he MUST mean something more specific than ALL laws by "works of the law".

 

[dadof10]

Again, you are misrepresenting the Word of God and should be ashamed. The word is not "obey" but "doer," which does not carry a connotation of obedience. As you've been told, the word in the Greek is poietes, with the root poieo, which means to produce, or be an author. Poietes, in fact, is translated from the Koine Greek extrabiblically as "poem." One does not "obey" a poem, one "writes" a poem, and it is in this sense that we "do" the Law. We live it out, expressing it in our lives through our best efforts to interpret what Christ has done in our lives by "doing" as He did. That is what we're called to do, and it is shameful that you insist on deliberately using a word that is not in Paul's original writing of the verse, and equally shameful that you would make others live a list of legalisms it is impossible for you to live yourself.

Uhh...Sorry. The definition from Trayer's is:

1) a maker, a producer, author
2) a doer, performer
a) one who obeys or fulfils the law
3) a poet


"Obey" is a perfectly acceptable translation here.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Uhh...Sorry. The definition from Trayer's is:

1) a maker, a producer, author
2) a doer, performer
a) one who obeys or fulfils the law
3) a poet

When it is third on the list, it is a rarely used in the Bible. Such is the case with the definition of the word here. Note, your highlighted definition is number three in line. Meaning, my friend, it hardly is used in that context at all, and as you can see, number four, "poem," as I cited, isn't used at all. Make all the excuses or reach for all the straws you wish. It doesn't wash.

"Obey" is a perfectly acceptable translation here.

If it were, the major word-for-word translations would so translate it. They don't. Only the "thought-for-thought" translations (i.e., NIV, NLT) make that translation, and it is not accurate to the thought.

 

[dadof10]

When it is third on the list, it is a rarely used in the Bible. Such is the case with the definition of the word here. Note, your highlighted definition is number three in line. Meaning, my friend, it hardly is used in that context at all,

Well, it's actually 2a, under the heading "a doer, performer", which you consider the most common (?) usage, or at least the most valid translation for the word "poietes".

Third or ninth, it still refutes your claim, which is: "The word is not "obey" but "doer," which does not carry a connotation of obedience." This is simply false.

and as you can see, number four, "poem," as I cited, isn't used at all. Make all the excuses or reach for all the straws you wish. It doesn't wash.

Huh? I'm not following. In your previous post, you said "Poietes, in fact, is translated from the Koine Greek extrabiblically as "poem." One does not "obey" a poem, one "writes" a poem, and it is in this sense that we "do" the Law."

You seem to be using the definition "poem" as VALID for this verse because it's the root of the word. Isn't this your point here?

If it were, the major word-for-word translations would so translate it. They don't. Only the "thought-for-thought" translations (i.e., NIV, NLT) make that translation, and it is not accurate to the thought.

The most common translation IS "doer", but to say there is no connotation of obedience, is refuted by Thayer's. The "sub-definition" (if there is such a word) of your "accurate" translation is "one who obeys or fulfills the law".

Sorry, but there is the connotation of obedience within the word.

 

[veryberry]

Well, sell what you have and give it to the poor could be looked at as either one act or two, I guess. It's obvious that Jesus meant "one thing" since that is what He said. His point is that "one thing" more must be done to "inherit eternal life", and that one thing is NOT faith alone. He says the Ruler lacks "one thing", then says "sell...and give...". After that, He says "follow me", AFTER he has fulfilled the "one thing" that allows him to "inherit eternal life".

Huh? "Show" again? Is this the "get out of jail free" card to the sola-fide crowd? Every time there is a verse that debunks justification by faith alone, it must mean "SHOWN to be..."? Sheesh... The man asked a simple question. This is wrenching the verse completely out of context. Where does it say "show" or even loosely reference demonstrate or reveal?

I'll ask again, "One thing you still lack" for what? What will this "one thing" complete? Obviously "inherit eternal life". There is no other way to interpret this. His answer ("you know the commandments") must refer to "inherit eternal life".

If you disagree with my interpretation, just tell me what Jesus is referencing when He says "One thing more you lack..." The Ruler lacks this one thing for what? What is he completing by doing this "one thing"? That is the question.

Luke 7: 44-50 - 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.â€
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.â€

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?â€

50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.â€


My focus here is on the woman.

Now, what has happen to this woman? Her sins were forgiven and only God can forgive sins.

Why were her sins forgiven? was it because she, washed Jesus feet? kissed his feet? annointed his feet? No, So what did theses works do? They showed her love(true faith)for God. So her sins were forgiven because of her faith and her faith alone.

What was the result of her faith? She was saved!

Now what is it that causes us to be unworthy to enter the kingdom of heaven? Is it because we lack works? No,it is because we have sinned against God?

What works can we do to forgive our sins? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves. Only God can save us and he did that by sending his son as a living sacrifice to wash away our sins with Jesus' Blood.

John 6:28-29 - Even the belief that we hold is a work of God.

Luke 18: 27 - Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.â€

What is impossible with man? to make ourselves worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven.

What is possible with God? To make us worthy to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I understand how you are interpreting Luke 18:18-29 and yes, with no hard feelings towards you, I disagree w/ your interpretation. I don't think you understand how I interpret Luke 18:18-29 though. Just in case, I will explain:


The ruler askes Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus knows the mans heart and understands that he thinks he can earn salvation. Jesus tries to show the man that he can not work his way into heaven. Jesus knows this mans love for money so Jesus uses it to convict the man and to teach others about money. Jesus lets the man know that no one is good but God. Then, knowing that the man thinks that he is able to make himself worthy by following the commandments, Jesus shows the man that he is not able to keep the commandments.

*note*
In order to get eternal life through the law we would have to keep ALL the law. (we can not do this).
James 2:10-11-10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

When Jesus said "You know the commandments"...the man believed he was keeping the commandments.

Then when Jesus says,“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€

This shows the man that he is not good & cannot follow the commandments...Jesus knows that money is an idol for the man so he uses this to convict the man...This also shows the man what he needs for eternal life...If the man were to sell, give & follow...then that would show his true faith (that he got eternal life through) and those acts that show his true faith would have gotten him 'treasure in heaven'...not 'eternal life' which he got through Faith alone...so the ONE THING the man lacked was true faith...the three things Jesus told him to do would show the one thing he lacked (true faith).

But this man chose money over God...he loved money more than God...this showed dead faith...and dead faith can't save. We must put ALL our faith in Jesus to save us...we can not trust in our works to take part in salvation or we are not putting ALL our faith in Jesus (we are also putting faith in our works to save us) Jesus is the way...not Jesus + works is the way. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus...Gift of God not of works.

Romans 11:6- 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Absolutely not.

Just what it says, we are justified apart from works OF THE LAW, not all deeds done in faith. By "works" or "works of the law" Paul means works of the Mosaic law, not charity, or baptism or keeping the commandments..

Same here...

...And here, specifically circumcision. The context of Romans 4 bears this out:

"Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised." (Rom. 4)

...And here...

...And here. These verses, and others like them, must be interpreted in light of the audience Paul was writing to, and the historical backdrop of the time. The first major controversy in the early Church (that we know of) was how Gentiles were to be accepted. Did they have to be circumcised according to the law? What parts of the law did they have to keep, if any? Acts 15 shows how big of a deal this was to the Church, because they called a council and the decisions reached were binding on ALL the faithful, not just the Church in Antioch

"As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem." (Acts 6:4)

If Paul's letters are not interpreted in this light, you will miss his MAJOR point, which is justification is not by keeping the Mosaic law, but by faith in Christ. Paul doesn't even have "keeping the commandments" or charity or baptism in mind when writing the verses above. He is speaking specifically to an audience which he lived with, talked to personally and knew very well. They are right in the middle of this controversy and they even have some "Judiazers" in their midst.

This is the proper interpretation of Paul's "faith vs. works" verses. I know what comes next, the old "the commandments ARE the law" take. Before we go down this road, just remember that "faith" is also part of the law, yet Paul does not mean faith when he says "WORKS of the law", so there are exceptions, therefore he MUST mean something more specific than ALL laws by "works of the law".

Okay so although I disagree, I now understand how you interpret some of these verses. But, I have to ask something. Correct me if I am wrong but is this how you interpret Romans 4:1-6?

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?2 For if Abraham were justified by works (circumcision), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh (gets circumcised) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh (gets circumcised) not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (circumcision),

It is your interpretation that when he speaks of work he is specifically referring to circumcision & circumcision only?