Is belief "works"?

[dadof10]

Luke 7: 44-50 - 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.â€
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.â€

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?â€

50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.â€


My focus here is on the woman.

Now, what has happen to this woman? Her sins were forgiven and only God can forgive sins.

Why were her sins forgiven? was it because she, washed Jesus feet? kissed his feet? annointed his feet? No, So what did theses works do? They showed her love(true faith)for God. So her sins were forgiven because of her faith and her faith alone.

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you", not "your faith ALONE has saved you". You are reading this into the text. Obviously her good deeds and faith go hand in hand and her faith was expressed through her "love". This doesn't mean her love didn't effect her salvation or that Jesus was teaching sola-fide here (or anywhere).

What was the result of her faith? She was saved!

Now what is it that causes us to be unworthy to enter the kingdom of heaven? Is it because we lack works? No,it is because we have sinned against God?

What works can we do to forgive our sins? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves.

"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much"

Seems to me Jesus is saying the opposite. It was her washing, wiping, kissing and anointing that led to her sins being forgiven. Certainly she has faith and PERFORMED ALL THESE ACTIONS IN FAITH. That is why those actions are able to lead to forgiveness and why Jesus said "your faith has saved you". Then there is this:

"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Obviously it's more than just faith alone which leads to the forgiveness of sins. Case in point...

Only God can save us and he did that by sending his son as a living sacrifice to wash away our sins with Jesus' Blood.

Baptism is HOW sin is washed away. This is one way in which God's Grace is applied to us. I agree, only God can save us, but what makes you think that this Saving Grace is limited to faith alone? If a man walks by a homeless person (as in James), yet is moved to help, this is by Grace. If the man walks over to the person, that is by Grace. If the man has money on him, that is by Grace. If he pulls it out and gives it to the person, that is Grace. The man did NOTHING that earns salvation, yet he has cooperated with God's Grace, which is a salvific act.

I understand how you are interpreting Luke 18:18-29 and yes, with no hard feelings towards you, I disagree w/ your interpretation. I don't think you understand how I interpret Luke 18:18-29 though. Just in case, I will explain:

The ruler askes Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus knows the mans heart and understands that he thinks he can earn salvation.

Where is this in the text? With all due respect, it's not there, you are reading it into the text.

Jesus tries to show the man that he can not work his way into heaven.

This is not there either.

Jesus knows this mans love for money so Jesus uses it to convict the man and to teach others about money. Jesus lets the man know that no one is good but God.

I think where Jesus says "Why call me good..." He is trying to get a response from the Ruler. He has called Jesus "good teacher", not "Lord", so Jesus is attempting to get the Ruler to realize Who Jesus truly is.

Then, knowing that the man thinks that he is able to make himself worthy by following the commandments, Jesus shows the man that he is not able to keep the commandments.

Wow. The Ruler doesn't say he is able to "make himself worthy", nor did Jesus tell him he was "not able to keep the commandments". Both of these takes are not anywhere close to what the text says. Where are you getting them from?

*note*
In order to get eternal life through the law we would have to keep ALL the law. (we can not do this).
James 2:10-11-10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

When Jesus said "You know the commandments"...the man believed he was keeping the commandments.

And JESUS ACCEPTS HIS PREMISE!!! To the Rulers response "these I have kept..." Jesus doesn't say "no you haven't!!". He ACCEPTS that the Ruler HAS kept them and says "One thing more you lack..." In Mark's version it says: "And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him..." If Jesus were correcting him, it certainly would say so in the text.

Then when Jesus says,“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€

This shows the man that he is not good & cannot follow the commandments

"You still LACK one thing" means he cannot follow the commandments? No, sorry. The Ruler says he has kept them from his youth. Jesus ACCEPTS this and says "YOU STILL LACK ONE THING...", not "the only thing that is needed..." How is ADDING something to keeping the commandments telling him he cannot keep them?

...Jesus knows that money is an idol for the man so he uses this to convict the man...This also shows the man what he needs for eternal life...If the man were to sell, give & follow...then that would show his true faith (that he got eternal life through) and those acts that show his true faith would have gotten him 'treasure in heaven'...not 'eternal life' which he got through Faith alone

Sorry, not in the text either.

...so the ONE THING the man lacked was true faith...the three things Jesus told him to do would show the one thing he lacked (true faith).

Boy, you guys and your "showing". The "one thing" was "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven". "Inheriting eternal life" and having "treasure in Heaven" are not mutually exclusive. He can inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments and giving to the poor, the latter also giving him "treasure". Because treasure will be given on the basis of "selling...giving", doesn't mean the "selling...giving" doesn't effect salvation. In fact, the text say that "selling...giving" is the one thing he LACKS for inheriting eternal life. This is what the text says.

But this man chose money over God...he loved money more than God...this showed dead faith...and dead faith can't save. We must put ALL our faith in Jesus to save us...we can not trust in our works to take part in salvation or we are not putting ALL our faith in Jesus (we are also putting faith in our works to save us) Jesus is the way...not Jesus + works is the way. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus...Gift of God not of works.

Finish the sentence and I'll agree. "Works OF THE LAW". You are making the mistake of thinking that "works" means all deeds. It doesn't, which is the OP.

Romans 11:6- 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

This, too refers to works of the Mosaic law.

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom 11)

Okay so although I disagree, I now understand how you interpret some of these verses. But, I have to ask something. Correct me if I am wrong but is this how you interpret Romans 4:1-6?

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?2 For if Abraham were justified by works (circumcision), he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh (gets circumcised) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh (gets circumcised) not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (circumcision),

It is your interpretation that when he speaks of work he is specifically referring to circumcision & circumcision only?

Not ONLY circumcision, primarily circumcision. As we read in Acts, this was the primary focus of the "Judiaizers" of Acts 15, and what led to the first council of Jerusalem:

"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question." (Acts 15)

Although only circumcision is mentioned HERE, we see the Judiaizers were also pushing acceptance of other "works" of the law.

"But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

This is the historical context in which Paul is writing. This is what he is reacting to. This must be taken into consideration when interpreting Paul's letters because this is what he is REACTING to when he writes. His letters, as with the rest of the Bible, were not written in a vacuum.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Dad, I think you need to do a study of the five solae. Please let me know what you think.

http://www.gotquestions.org/five-solas.html

 

[dadof10]

Dad, I think you need to do a study of the five solae. Please let me know what you think.

http://www.gotquestions.org/five-solas.html

I think this website has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper interpretation of the word "poietes", which is the topic here.
I think you are trying distraction instead of either explaining your view, or changing it.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I think this website has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper interpretation of the word "poietes", which is the topic here.
I think you are trying distraction instead of either explaining your view, or changing it.

Nope. This is in response to your post to which I responded, which denied faith alone, claiming that "alone" is read into the text. This is a denial of biblical doctrine, and requires a readjustment of thought. The website will help you make that necessary step.

 

[francisdesales]

Nope. This is in response to your post to which I responded, which denied faith alone, claiming that "alone" is read into the text. This is a denial of biblical doctrine, and requires a readjustment of thought. The website will help you make that necessary step.

Oh boy, this argument again...

Faith alone saves is biblical doctrine??? You would think Paul would have said that at least ONCE if that was the case... Or Jesus. Or someone who was inspired to write Scriptures. THIS is the "primary" doctrine of Scriptures, one of the key "sola's", a pillar of Christianity - never once explicitly mentioned in Scriptures???

Seems odd that the words are simply not found in Scriptures. In fact, quite the opposite is ACTUALLY explicitly written in James 2 and in 1 Corinthians 13.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Again, you are misrepresenting the Word of God and should be ashamed. The word is not "obey" but "doer," which does not carry a connotation of obedience. As you've been told, the word in the Greek is poietes, with the root poieo, which means to produce, or be an author. Poietes, in fact, is translated from the Koine Greek extrabiblically as "poem." One does not "obey" a poem, one "writes" a poem, and it is in this sense that we "do" the Law. We live it out, expressing it in our lives through our best efforts to interpret what Christ has done in our lives by "doing" as He did. That is what we're called to do, and it is shameful that you insist on deliberately using a word that is not in Paul's original writing of the verse, and equally shameful that you would make others live a list of legalisms it is impossible for you to live yourself.

A doer does not carry a connotation of obedience??? Really? Are you serious?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith alone saves is biblical doctrine??? You would think Paul would have said that at least ONCE if that was the case... Or Jesus. Or someone who was inspired to write Scriptures. THIS is the "primary" doctrine of Scriptures, one of the key "sola's", a pillar of Christianity - never once explicitly mentioned in Scriptures???

I chaff at the 'faith alone' label, too. Actually, it's "righteousness (by faith-see context) apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NIV). And it is in regard to what 'justifies' a person (as in to be made righteous), not what 'saves' a person.

Seems odd that the words are simply not found in Scriptures. In fact, quite the opposite is ACTUALLY explicitly written in James 2 and in 1 Corinthians 13.

Yes, James is making a different argument than what Paul is making in his 'faith apart from works' sermon. Salvation is indeed by the faith (that justifies all by itself--Paul's argument) that can be seen in what it does, not just what it says, that faith being validated by those works (James' argument). Works being the evidence presented at the judgment upon which judgment is made (Matthew 25), but works that did not, and can not make the person righteous to begin with. Only the blood of Christ, secured by faith apart from works, can do that.

We protesters would do well to call it what Paul called it, and be more careful to make the distinction between being justified (made righteous) by the blood of Christ, and salvation--being delivered from the wrath and curse of God. Justification is by faith all by itself apart from works. Salvation is by the faith that justifies (all by itself), but which has the evidence of works to validate it as the faith that justifies and which changes a person into a new creation who does the preordained works of righteousness God had planned for new creations to do.

 

[francisdesales]

I chaff at the 'faith alone' label, too. Actually, it's "righteousness (by faith-see context) apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NIV). And it is in regard to what 'justifies' a person (as in to be made righteous), not what 'saves' a person.

Good point. Actually, I could go along with "faith alone" if we broaden the definition of "faith" to what Paul sometimes is refering to - which includes our walk in Christ, not just trust and intellectual belief. Any reference to Abraham in Romans 4, for example, would necessarily call to mind, his decision to actually DO something, making his faith visible.

Yes, James is making a different argument than what Paul is making in his 'faith apart from works' sermon. Salvation is indeed by the faith (that justifies all by itself--Paul's argument) that can be seen in what it does, not just what it says, that faith being validated by those works (James' argument). Works being the evidence presented at the judgment upon which judgment is made (Matthew 25), but works that did not, and can not make the person righteous to begin with. Only the blood of Christ, secured by faith apart from works, can do that.

Again, definitions are important, aren't they? I agree, the two are making different distinctions of "faith". Also, based on what we do, rather than what we say. I think we are pretty much on the same page.

We protesters would do well to call it what Paul called it, and be more careful to make the distinction between being justified (made righteous) by the blood of Christ, and salvation--being delivered from the wrath and curse of God. Justification is by faith all by itself apart from works. Salvation is by the faith that justifies (all by itself), but which has the evidence of works to validate it as the faith that justifies and which changes a person into a new creation who does the preordained works of righteousness God had planned for new creations to do.

I agree, yet again, that people should be careful with theology and terminology. It leads to extremes that are not the intent of Scriptures. For example, faith alone CAN lead to the idea that our ongoing sanctification is of no consequence (since Christ's blood "covers" me and the Father views only Jesus' righteousness...). This "freedom" (from obeying God's Law - sanctification) leads to slavery to sin, as Peter mentions in 2 Peter 2.

Thanks again for your insight,

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IMO, Protestants need to wake up and realize they need to make every effort to show their faith as able to justify (for their sake, not God's), and, therefore, save them on the Day of Wrath. While Catholics need to understand their is nothing in what they do righteously that can make them righteous before God. What they do can only show them to have the righteousness that saves--not man's righteousness, for no man has a righteousness of his own that can save, but only Christ's righteousness. We are saved when we can SHOW that we have the righteousness of Christ--the righteousness that saves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good point. Actually, I could go along with "faith alone" if we broaden the definition of "faith" to what Paul sometimes is refering to - which includes our walk in Christ, not just trust and intellectual belief. Any reference to Abraham in Romans 4, for example, would necessarily call to mind, his decision to actually DO something, making his faith visible.




Again, definitions are important, aren't they? I agree, the two are making different distinctions of "faith". Also, based on what we do, rather than what we say. I think we are pretty much on the same page.




I agree, yet again, that people should be careful with theology and terminology. It leads to extremes that are not the intent of Scriptures. For example, faith alone CAN lead to the idea that our ongoing sanctification is of no consequence (since Christ's blood "covers" me and the Father views only Jesus' righteousness...). This "freedom" (from obeying God's Law - sanctification) leads to slavery to sin, as Peter mentions in 2 Peter 2.

Thanks again for your insight,

Regards

Thank you.

I'm confident that we are pretty close to one another on this subject. I respect your insights into matters of scripture. Perhaps we can sharpen one another if necessary.

Dashing off to finish my brain surgeries for the day...

Blessings.

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you.

I'm confident that we are pretty close to one another on this subject. I respect your insights into matters of scripture. Perhaps we can sharpen one another if necessary.

Dashing off to finish my brain surgeries for the day...

Blessings.

Yes. I once came here to "convert" others - but that doesn't work very well. So I have learned to come here to "sharpen one another" and myself. I have found I can learn things that deepen my faith and love of God and others. And if I am able to do this to others, praise God that He allowed me to be part of the process.

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

IMO, Protestants need to wake up and realize they need to make every effort to show their faith as able to justify (for their sake, not God's), and, therefore, save them on the Day of Wrath. While Catholics need to understand their is nothing in what they do righteously that can make them righteous before God. What they do can only show them to have the righteousness that saves--not man's righteousness, for no man has a righteousness of his own that can save, but only Christ's righteousness. We are saved when we can SHOW that we have the righteousness of Christ--the righteousness that saves.

Just an aside, Jethro, the Catholic Church does not teach that there is anything that we can do to be made righteous before God. Unfortunately, that idea probably comes from either poorly taught Catholics who think that or the misunderstanding of the faith/works relationship that has been seen on this very thread as an example. (in other words, if one was to state that "you need works to be saved, as well", you are automatically accused of being "work righteous". I think our short conversation tells us that this does not have to be the case)

But I do appreciate your reminder to us. Personal devotion and piety can very well lead to such a mentality, when it is not coupled with the knowledge of our inability to even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Holy Spirit.

That's why I keep my signature line there as a reminder... ;)

Regards

 

[veryberry]

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you", not "your faith ALONE has saved you". You are reading this into the text. Obviously her good deeds and faith go hand in hand and her faith was expressed through her "love". This doesn't mean her love didn't effect her salvation or that Jesus was teaching sola-fide here (or anywhere).

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you", not "your faith and good deeds have saved you." You are reading this into the text. Obviously her good deeds showed her true faith which involves love, trust and commitment. It is through this true faith (which involves love , trust & commitment) that she was saved...she was not saved by the deeds that she did to show her true faith (which involved love trust and commitment). Those deeds expressed her love, trust & commitment (true faith). Those deeds did not save her, but the true faith did.

"Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much"

Seems to me Jesus is saying the opposite. It was her washing, wiping, kissing and anointing that led to her sins being forgiven.

Did Jesus say: "Your washing, wiping, kissing and anointing have saved you."? No, because it was the faith that saved her. The washing, wiping, kissing and anointing were a result of her faith...the faith that saved her...true faith (which involves love trust & commitment) & produces good deeds, unlike dead faith (which is belief w/out the love trust & commitment)...dead faith like the devils...dead faith like the rich man had.

Certainly she has faith and PERFORMED ALL THESE ACTIONS IN FAITH. That is why those actions are able to lead to forgiveness and why Jesus said "your faith has saved you".

Yes, certainly she has faith. She performed all these actions because of her faith. Those actions did not lead to forgiveness. When we put our faith in Jesus...we have a change of heart/mind (repentance)...that is what led to forgiveness. She loved & trusted Jesus (she had true saving faith), not only did this faith save her but the faith also resulted in her doing good deeds out of love. These good deeds showed her true faith...just like the rich mans unwillingness to sell his belongings, give to the poor & follow Jesus showed his lack of true faith...showed his dead faith...he did not have the same love, trust & commitment (true faith) that this woman had instead he had dead faith (belief w/out love, trust & commitment).

Then there is this:

"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ('because of' not 'in order to get') the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Obviously it's more than just faith alone which leads to the forgiveness of sins. Case in point...

Baptism is HOW sin is washed away. This is one way in which God's Grace is applied to us.

Our sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus when we put our faith in him. Baptism is a first step to obediance (obediance out of love not obligation in order to be saved). And it symbolizes or represents us dying to our selves, being burried with Christ and rising to new life with Christ. It represents our rebirth.

Titus 3:5-Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration (washing of rebirth), and renewing of the Holy Ghost (sanctification);

I agree, only God can save us, but what makes you think that this Saving Grace is limited to faith alone?

Being reborn & having my eyes opened to the word of God when I put my faith in him.

If a man walks by a homeless person (as in James), yet is moved to help, this is by Grace. If the man walks over to the person, that is by Grace. If the man has money on him, that is by Grace. If he pulls it out and gives it to the person, that is Grace. The man did NOTHING that earns salvation, yet he has cooperated with God's Grace, which is a salvific act.

It is not the cooperating that saves us but it is the faith...true faith (which involves love, trust & commitment) that saves us...the cooperating is a result of the faith that saves us. We are saved through the faith...not the works...the works are a result of faith...the faith that saves.

Where is this in the text? With all due respect, it's not there, you are reading it into the text.

This is not there either.

I am telling you my interpretation of the text. The man asks What he must DO to inherit eternal life...it is obviouse that he believes he can earn salvation through works because Jesus goes on to list commandments & the man claims to have kept them. If the man saw it as a matter of the heart or faith at all then he would have gladly sold, given & followed (out of love)...but he didn't want to do this...he would rather have followed a set of rules to earn salvation...so Jesus gave him some rules that he knew the man would not follow (because he did not have true faith) to show the man that he could not earn salvation through works but that he needed faith.

I think where Jesus says "Why call me good..." He is trying to get a response from the Ruler. He has called Jesus "good teacher", not "Lord", so Jesus is attempting to get the Ruler to realize Who Jesus truly is.

I agree with this. Jesus knew this mans heart. When he asked "Why call me good..." he is making a point. Jesus is not denying his deity, but trying to get the man to see who he is. This obviously also lets the man know that he (the man) is not good because nobody is good but God.

Wow. The Ruler doesn't say he is able to "make himself worthy", nor did Jesus tell him he was "not able to keep the commandments". Both of these takes are not anywhere close to what the text says. Where are you getting them from?

Wow, I did not say that the man said he could make himself worthy, nor did I say that Jesus told him he was not able to keep the commandments. take another look:
Then, knowing that the man thinks that he is able to make himself worthy by following the commandments, Jesus shows the man that he is not able to keep the commandments.
Again, I am not giving you word for word text...I am giving you my interpretation of the text.

 

[veryberry]

And JESUS ACCEPTS HIS PREMISE!!!

Really? Where in the text does it say this?

To the Rulers response "these I have kept..." Jesus doesn't say "no you haven't!!". He ACCEPTS that the Ruler HAS kept them and says "One thing more you lack..."

So, because Jesus does not say "no you haven't" this automatically means that he accepts that the ruler has kept the 10 commandments? Do you really believe that this man kept the 10 commandments? He loved money more than God...money was an idol. The first 4 commandments are about love for God...this man put money before God...he chose money over God when he walked away.

Matthew 6:19-21-19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

This mans treasure was obviously his wealth on earth...therefore, where was his heart? Remember Jesus also said:
Luke 18:22-22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€

Matthew 6:24- 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

This man loved money, he was devoted to money...therefore, was he able to love God & be devoted to God?

In Mark's version it says: "And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him..." If Jesus were correcting him, it certainly would say so in the text.

Yes, Jesus loved him...he does not only love him if he follows the commandments.

"You still LACK one thing" means he cannot follow the commandments? No, sorry.

I did not say "you still lack one thing" means he cannot follow the commandments. Look again:

Then when Jesus says,“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€

This shows the man that he is not good & cannot follow the commandments.

The Ruler says he has kept them from his youth. Jesus ACCEPTS this and says "YOU STILL LACK ONE THING...", not "the only thing that is needed..." How is ADDING something to keeping the commandments telling him he cannot keep them?

The text does not say that Jesus accepts that he kept the commandments.

You still lack one thing. He added three somethings not one something.

Jesus did not say:
"You still lack one thing and that one thing is, Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€
He said:
"You still lack one thing.(period) Then Jesus tells him to sell give & follow (three things)...why? Because this would take true faith (which the man did not have) & then the man would have treasure in heaven (if he did these things)...but the mans treasure was on earth (not heaven), he was storing up treasure on earth (not in heaven). He could not serve two masters...he would hate the one & love the other...he was devoted to one & despised the other.

The first 4 commandments are about love for God. Commandments 6-10 are about love for your neighbor. Jesus' 2 great commandments are:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
If this man loved God w/ all his heart, soul & might then he would have put God before his money...if this man loved his neighbor as himself he would have given to the poor. But the man showed that he did not love God w/ all his heart, soul & might, & that he did not love his neighbor as himself.

Sorry, not in the text either.

When I say:

...Jesus knows that money is an idol for the man so he uses this to convict the man...This also shows the man what he needs for eternal life...If the man were to sell, give & follow...then that would show his true faith (that he got eternal life through) and those acts that show his true faith would have gotten him 'treasure in heaven'...not 'eternal life' which he got through Faith alone.

I am telling you my interpretation, not word for word text.

Boy, you guys and your "showing". The "one thing" was "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven". "Inheriting eternal life" and having "treasure in Heaven" are not mutually exclusive. He can inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments and giving to the poor, the latter also giving him "treasure". Because treasure will be given on the basis of "selling...giving", doesn't mean the "selling...giving" doesn't effect salvation. In fact, the text say that "selling...giving" is the one thing he LACKS for inheriting eternal life. This is what the text says.

He can inherit eternal life through true faith (one thing) which will produce a desire to uphold the law and will produce good deeds such as giving to the poor (many things), the works (as a result of faith) give him treasure in heaven...when done as a result of faith (love, trust & commitment)...not out of trying to obtain salvation, seeking the glory of men or any other selfish reason.

The text does not say that selling & giving is the one thing he lacks for inheriting eternal life. You are reading this into the text.

Finish the sentence and I'll agree. "Works OF THE LAW". You are making the mistake of thinking that "works" means all deeds. It doesn't, which is the OP.

Ephesians 2:8-9-8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This does not say "works OF THE LAW" nor do the verses that do say "works of the law, say: "works of the mosaic law minus the 10 commandments" you are reading these things into the text.

This, too refers to works of the Mosaic law.

"I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom 11)

this does not imply that verse 6 (And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.) is referring to only the mosaic law minus the ten comandments, baptism, and good deeds. The point of verse 6 is that you can not work for grace...no matter how you are trying to work for it...grace is unmeritted...therefore you can not work for it, whether you are trying to work for it using commandments, good deeds, ceremonial law or anything else...grace is unmeritted...you can not earn it...you can only recieve it through faith.

Not ONLY circumcision, primarily circumcision. As we read in Acts, this was the primary focus of the "Judiaizers" of Acts 15, and what led to the first council of Jerusalem:

"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question." (Acts 15)

Although only circumcision is mentioned HERE, we see the Judiaizers were also pushing acceptance of other "works" of the law.

"But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

This is the historical context in which Paul is writing. This is what he is reacting to. This must be taken into consideration when interpreting Paul's letters because this is what he is REACTING to when he writes. His letters, as with the rest of the Bible, were not written in a vacuum.

Through the moral law (10 commandments) man can see how holy God is and how sinfull he (man) is. The moral law shows man that he is sinfull and thus he might see his need for a savior. Christ led a sinless life and fulfilled the moral law. This does not give us a license to sin. When we put faith in Jesus his righteousness is imputed to us & justifies us. It is his righteosness (not ours) that keeps the law from condemning us when we put trust in Jesus.
In OT moral law would lead man to ceremonial law (priesthood, sacrifices, tabernacle). Man could find a solution to sin through faith in what the ceremonial laws represented which was Jesus who would die for us as the lamb of God. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws when he died for us..he is our ultimate sacrifice and he is our high priest who leaves us with the gift of the holy spirit.
No man can or could perfectly keep the law...the law points us to Jesus...who is the way! We are made righteous through Jesus...not through law, baptism or good deeds...we do not do these works out of obligation to be saved, but, we do them joyfully out of love & gratitude..because of our faith in Jesus...because we see what Jesus has done for us..he saves us not because we deserve it but because of grace...because he loves us.

 

[Butch5]

Why do so many ignore the clear teachings of Scripture?

 

[francisdesales]

Veryberry,

I think you might want to define what you mean by "faith" and what it encompasses. What is "true faith"? Do these involve actions or are they merely intellectual feelings and ideas? That might be helpful.

Regards

 

[veryberry]

Veryberry,

I think you might want to define what you mean by "faith" and what it encompasses. What is "true faith"? Do these involve actions or are they merely intellectual feelings and ideas? That might be helpful.

Regards

In James 2 he talks about 'dead faith' (like the devils have) which does not save. When I say "true faith" or "saving faith" or "living faith" I am referring to the faith that saves...the faith that James explains that Abraham had...faith that produces works.

Yes, true faith that saves involves actions in that it produces works...these works validate your faith...they are the outward showing of your true faith.

Seems to me that 'dead faith' is belief that lacks in love, trust & commitment and if your faith is not producing works then it is this 'dead faith' that you have (faith w/out works is dead). While 'true faith' is belief that encompasses love, trust & commitment...you are fully relying on Jesus...when you have this 'true faith' He makes you into a new creature (you are reborn). He puts his spirit in you and he is sanctifying you...he changes you...you no longer live for worldly things or go after things of the flesh...you have died to your old self and you are born to a brand new life in Christ. You are now living for Christ...in doing so, you will have works, as He leads you and does works through you. This is how 'true faith' produces works, yet it is not the works that save you, but, those works show your true faith which you are saved through.

Faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone.

 

[Butch5]

In James 2 he talks about 'dead faith' (like the devils have) which does not save. When I say "true faith" or "saving faith" or "living faith" I am referring to the faith that saves...the faith that James explains that Abraham had...faith that produces works.

Yes, true faith that saves involves actions in that it produces works...these works validate your faith...they are the outward showing of your true faith.

Seems to me that 'dead faith' is belief that lacks in love, trust & commitment and if your faith is not producing works then it is this 'dead faith' that you have (faith w/out works is dead). While 'true faith' is belief that encompasses love, trust & commitment...you are fully relying on Jesus...when you have this 'true faith' He makes you into a new creature (you are reborn). He puts his spirit in you and he is sanctifying you...he changes you...you no longer live for worldly things or go after things of the flesh...you have died to your old self and you are born to a brand new life in Christ. You are now living for Christ...in doing so, you will have works, as He leads you and does works through you. This is how 'true faith' produces works, yet it is not the works that save you, but, those works show your true faith which you are saved through.

Faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone.

Hi veryberry,

That is not what James said. If faith without works is dead, then works must be there before that faith can be alive. Therefore works are a part of faith, not the product of faith. If there are no works faith is dead, how can it produce works? In James' argument works give life to faith.

 

[veryberry]

Hi veryberry,

That is not what James said. If faith without works is dead, then works must be there before that faith can be alive. Therefore works are a part of faith, not the product of faith. If there are no works faith is dead, how can it produce works? In James' argument works give life to faith.

Here is the problem with" Inorder to have have saving faith, you must have works with it".

Lets say, I just robbed a bank and as I was in my get away car. A preacher comes on the radio and preaches the Gospel. After hearing the Gospel, I feel convicted of my sins and come to a realization that my soul is doomed. After hearing the Gospel, I put saving faith in Jesus and at that very moment an 18 wheeler plows into me and I am dead instantly. I had the faith that would produce works if I had not died. Where would I go? Would you deny that I would go to Heaven and be with God? or am I doomed for eternal damnation?

Take the thief on the cross next to Jesus Luke 23:40-43 . Jesus did not say, "Well, first you need to get down from this cross and go do some good works, get babtized, etc... then you will be in paradise with me. No, because of the thiefs faith, the thief was promised to be in paradise with Jesus.

Would you agree, that when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you sare saved? How are you filled with the Holy Spirit? Do you have to be baptized, do good works? Follow the 10 Commandments? Have faith?

 

[francisdesales]

In James 2 he talks about 'dead faith' (like the devils have) which does not save.

He means a "faith without works" does not save. The two go together. When you separate them, neither alone are salvific. If a faith exists without works, it is dead and does not save.

It is the works which makes the faith salvific. (and vice versus, as Paul states emphatically). The devils BELIEVE that God exists, they certainly have "faith".

When I say "true faith" or "saving faith" or "living faith" I am referring to the faith that saves...the faith that James explains that Abraham had...faith that produces works.

If Abraham did not have works, his faith would have been dead, meaningless. He is touted as a great man of faith BECAUSE of his faith-filled works. Not because he thought about God, believed and did nothing...

For a faith to be "living", you have to have works/actions.

Yes, true faith that saves involves actions in that it produces works...these works validate your faith...they are the outward showing of your true faith.

Without which, you have a dead, non-salvific faith. Thus, faith alone is dead.

Seems to me that 'dead faith' is belief that lacks in love, trust & commitment and if your faith is not producing works then it is this 'dead faith' that you have (faith w/out works is dead). While 'true faith' is belief that encompasses love, trust & commitment...you are fully relying on Jesus...when you have this 'true faith' He makes you into a new creature (you are reborn). He puts his spirit in you and he is sanctifying you...he changes you...you no longer live for worldly things or go after things of the flesh...you have died to your old self and you are born to a brand new life in Christ. You are now living for Christ...in doing so, you will have works, as He leads you and does works through you. This is how 'true faith' produces works, yet it is not the works that save you, but, those works show your true faith which you are saved through.

It is not works alone or faith alone that saves. It is faith working through love. If you don't have works, your faith is dead. If you don't have faith, your works are dead...

Regards