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Is belief "works"?

eb

Beleif repentance confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism are
obedient works.

Yes, and if one says they are saved or Justified because of doing them, they are against scripture. For Paul's Gospel which is the Gospel of God Rom 1:1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

His Gospel is that by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] many shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny that and attribute it to the obedience of Two, Christ and the one being made Righteous !
 
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eb



Yes He does. God chose certain People before the foundation of the World to be saved by Grace and the rest to be damned for their sins. They had not one shred of hope of being saved by God. They are called vessels of wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Then God has fault and balme for the lost and men are with excuse contrary to what Paul said in Rom 1:20.

Rom 9:22 the verb fitted can be middle voice and contexts shows it is middle voice for the Jews fitted themselves for God's wrath, cf 1 Thess 2:15-16
 
eb



Yes, and if one says they are saved or Justified because of doing them, they are against scripture. For Paul's Gospel which is the Gospel of God Rom 1:1

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

His Gospel is that by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] many shall be made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny that and attribute it to the obedience of Two, Christ and the one being made Righteous !

Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Which do you serve?
 
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eb

God does not reckon people righteous while they continue to live and remain
in and work unrighteousness.

Thats False, He recokens them Christ died for Righteous while they are enemies, because even then they have been Reconciled to God Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Which do you serve?

I agree with Rom 6:16, however you reject this Truth:

Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny that and attribute it to the obedience of Two, Christ and the one being made Righteous !
 
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Some of the language that is being used in these forums is going to stop.

I could not stand before God/Jesus and tell Him this person is saved that one is not. That is His doing not ours.

We are to spread the gospel. Knowing the gospel is not worded the same to each of our understanding, but most Christians have guide lines.

Jesus said 'what ever you do to the least of these you have done it unto Me.' We need to start treating each other as Jesus would. That includes, giving a glass of water, to which words we use.

Words that say in one form or another 'believe as I do or your not saved' Will not be tolerated. Calling our brothers and sisters liars, in any form, as in false..that is not true etc.

It is not that difficult to say I disagree with that teaching here is why....


Would we really post all that we do (self included) if we could see with our natural eyes Jesus looking over our shoulders?

Lets see if we can discuss Scripture and our differences in a more Godly manor.

Php_4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
 
Sure we would. We speak the way we do because we care. I mean, Peter cut off a slave's ear in front of Jesus. I would be more worried if we didn't get a bit heated. That said, Christian or not, one should always endeavor to be civil and respectful.
 
eb



Thats False, He recokens them Christ died for Righteous while they are enemies, because even then they have been Reconciled to God Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:10 does not say only certain pre-elect individuals were reconciled to God unconditionally.
 
I agree with Rom 6:16, however you reject this Truth:

Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny that and attribute it to the obedience of Two, Christ and the one being made Righteous !


I agree with Rom 6:16 also. But you avoided answering which master you serve:

Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Which do you serve?
 
I agree with Rom 6:16 also. But you avoided answering which master you serve:

Rom 6:16 Paul said you either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Which do you serve?

I agree with Rom 6:16, however you reject this Truth:

Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You deny that and attribute it to the obedience of Two, Christ and the one being made Righteous !
 
Rom 5:10 does not say only certain pre-elect individuals were reconciled to God unconditionally.

Who said it said that ? What it says:

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

They were reconciled to God, while being enemies, unbelievers, unrepentant !
 
Sure we would. We speak the way we do because we care. I mean, Peter cut off a slave's ear in front of Jesus. I would be more worried if we didn't get a bit heated. That said, Christian or not, one should always endeavor to be civil and respectful.
Welcome to CFnet ! I hope your time here is more of a blessing then not! :)
 
This issue has been discussed many times. The bible speaks of many different types of works: works of God, works of Satan; works of righteousness, works of the flesh, works of meirt, etc.
And the central issue that seems to always get clouded with devilish little twists and spins is which of these actually solicits a declaration of right standing before God. And, ironically, you didn't even list the one that does that--the 'work', the 'labor' (Jesus' figure of speech) of trusting in the blood of Christ.

Paul says "deeds...done in righteousness" (Titus 3:5), which logically doesn't include faith itself, for that is what he is contrasting work done in righteousness with, is not what justifies a person. We are justified by the grace and mercy of God's forgiveness apart from what we do, except believe of course, for belief in Christ is how we access the grace of God (Romans 5:1-2).



Those that follow faith only theology wrongly assume that when Paul says "apart from works" they assume that "works" here include ALL types of works when it does not!
So you're saying those who follow James' faith alone argument, that a faith that does not uphold the law is a faith that can not save, of which most of us are followers, assume that Paul somehow teaches that what we do is what justifies us? Show me where he says that, okay?



The works Paul is excluding are works of merit and not obedient works of the gospel as belief repentance confessing and submitting to baptism.
Nope. He said 'deeds...done in righteousness' (righteous deeds done in a right and fitting way, not in the way of 'works of the law' for all that connotes) are not what justify a person. Why would he say this if there really are 'deeds...done in righteousness' that justify????? Answer the question, please.


Rom 6 and Rom 10 are just two passages where Paul puts odedience BEFORE salvation/justification.
Only the 'obedience of trusting that God can, or has, forgiven your sins through the efficacious blood of Christ is required to access the God's grace of justification leading to salvation (only justified people can be saved). From there, there are expected and obligatory responses that faith produces. What you're really arguing for are 'what are those expected and obligatory responses that if not done show one is not in, or continuing in, the faith that saves?' Paul lists those...and the things some people vehemently defend simply are not in his lists. Ceremonial things, though required by God, don't necessarily validate or invalidate a confession of faith. There are things that do that, namely, the things that uphold 'love your neighbor as yourself'.
 
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As far as I can see, those that go along with the faith only teaching can wrap this up quickly, in seconds literally, by posting an example of one who lived under Christ's NT that was saved while still unrepentant, saved while continuing to deny Christ and saved while still lost in his unremitted sins. This thread has been going for a few days...no example yet given...very telling.

I agree, my point is simply to show a way to properly exegete passages of Scripture. You know what else is very telling? No one has said, yes, let's do that. Let's see if we can by using sound hermeneutics come to some kind of a conclusion on this matter. Instead everyone has continued with the Scriptural ping pong which was another point I was going to make. It seems to me that people aren't really concerned with getting to a conclusion on the matter but rather just espousing theological dogma.
 
agape

I don't think that answers my question.

Yes it did !

This thread is about belief is a work. Now I have given you the thread link to the thread where I go into detail on that type of Issue. Its up to you !
 
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