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Is believing/faith a work ?

brightfame52 said:
Sounds like I hit a nerve with that comment, nevertheless, if we condition our salvation on our act of believing, its salvation by works and flat out denies grace.
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5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5
 

brightfame52 what I want to say now is very serious indeed. It is true that good works, like giving someone a meal do not save, but prayer and meditating on God's word and the goodness of God which are not works in the physical sense, are the way of salvation. So please think on, ask God to forgive you, repent of your sins and humble yourself before the Lord, and he will be gracious to you and wrap his loving arms around you and bid you enter into His presence.​

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Jethro Bodine said:
5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5
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I have no problem with that verse, yet if you contribute your Justification before God on your believing, its works and condemned by God and the very verse you now quote.
 
Cooper said:

brightfame52 what I want to say now is very serious indeed. It is true that good works, like giving someone a meal do not save, but prayer and meditating on God's word and the goodness of God which are not works in the physical sense, are the way of salvation. So please think on, ask God to forgive you, repent of your sins and humble yourself before the Lord, and he will be gracious to you and wrap his loving arms around you and bid you enter into His heavenly kingdom.​

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This indeed is serious, if you condition salvation on anything you do, meditating or anything else you do, its a works base self righteous salvation !
 
brightfame52 said:
I have no problem with that verse, yet if you contribute your Justification before God on your believing, its works and condemned by God and the very verse you now quote.
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Show me the verse that says a person believing in God for the purpose of being justified is a works gospel.
 
brightfame52 said:
Do you condition salvation on your act of obeying ?
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If you are asking is it our works that save? No:
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Nor are we saved by faith alone: Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

What is your take on the meaning of the parable of the talents 52?
Mt 25:14 For [it is] as [when] a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mt 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
Mt 25:16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
Mt 25:17 In like manner he also that [received] the two gained other two.
Mt 25:18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord`s money.
Mt 25:19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
Mt 25:20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mt 25:22 And he also that [received] the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
Mt 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mt 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mt 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mt 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mt 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mt 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
 
Highway54 said:
If you are asking is it our works that save? No:
Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Nor are we saved by faith alone: Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?

What is your take on the meaning of the parable of the talents 52?
Mt 25:14 For [it is] as [when] a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mt 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey.
Mt 25:16 Straightway he that received the five talents went and traded with them, and made other five talents.
Mt 25:17 In like manner he also that [received] the two gained other two.
Mt 25:18 But he that received the one went away and digged in the earth, and hid his lord`s money.
Mt 25:19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them.
Mt 25:20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: lo, I have gained other five talents.
Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mt 25:22 And he also that [received] the two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: lo, I have gained other two talents.
Mt 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will set thee over many things; enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mt 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mt 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mt 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mt 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mt 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
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Do you condition salvation on your act of obeying ? Yes or No
 
brightfame52 said:
If you condition your salvation before God based upon your believing in God, thats works , Salvation is by Grace.
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I condition justification on what the Bible says justification is based on - faith in God's forgiveness. That is the only way to become righteous - have your sins forgiven. You can't become righteous in God's sight by doing righteous works. You can only become righteous in God's sight by having your unrighteousness removed through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and having it replaced with God's righteousness. You receive that forgiveness and the imputation of God's righteousness by having faith in it. That is what it means to be justified by faith, not by works.
 
point of clarification ...

Under Calvinism (monergism)
Faith cometh by hearing --> regeneration by Spirit --> person now has "saving faith"
.... because the cause of faith is the WORK of God via regeneration our faith is caused by God. Therefore, it is not our work, but God's work
... John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Under Arminism (synergism)
Faith cometh by hearing --> person has "saving faith" via 'free will' ---> regeneration by Spirit
....... because the cause of faith is something one does independent of God it is a WORK (dictionary definition of WORK is a physical or mental task done to achieve a purpose)

So, under the monergistic system man does not work to be saved and thus this is called Grace Alone.
Under the synergistic system both man and God must do WORK to be saved

In both systems a person is saved because they believe and are justified because they believe.
See https://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I condition justification on what the Bible says justification is based on - faith in God's forgiveness. That is the only way to become righteous - have your sins forgiven. You can't become righteous in God's sight by doing righteous works. You can only become righteous in God's sight by having your unrighteousness removed through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and having it replaced with God's righteousness. You receive that forgiveness and the imputation of God's righteousness by having faith in it. That is what it means to be justified by faith, not by works.
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This is works, Justification conditioned on what a person does.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
point of clarification ...

Under Calvinism (monergism)
Faith cometh by hearing --> regeneration by Spirit --> person now has "saving faith"
.... because the cause of faith is the WORK of God via regeneration our faith is caused by God. Therefore, it is not our work, but God's work
... John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”

Under Arminism (synergism)
Faith cometh by hearing --> person has "saving faith" via 'free will' ---> regeneration by Spirit
....... because the cause of faith is something one does independent of God it is a WORK (dictionary definition of WORK is a physical or mental task done to achieve a purpose)

So, under the monergistic system man does not work to be saved and thus this is called Grace Alone.
Under the synergistic system both man and God must do WORK to be saved

In both systems a person is saved because they believe and are justified because they believe.
See https://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
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Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29 ESV)
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Cooper said:
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29 ESV)
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Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29 ESV)
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 ESV)
 
atpollard said:
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29 ESV)
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 ESV)
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For it is God who works in you:
Paul here gave the reason why Christians must work out their salvation with fear and trembling-it is because God is working in them.

b. God... works in you:
The idea is that since God has done and is doing a work in the Christian, the Christian therefore has a greater responsibility to work diligently with fear and trembling regarding his own salvation and walk with the Lord. God’s work in us increases our responsibility; it doesn’t lessen it in any way.

Those that take God’s sovereignty and working and use them as an excuse for inaction and lethargy are like the wicked and lazy servant of Mat_25:24-30.

Those that are really God’s servants use their understanding of His sovereignty and omnipotence as a motivation for greater, more dedicated service to Him.

c. Both to will and to do:
God’s work in us extends to the transformation of our will, as well as changing our actions (to do). Yet in light of the original exhortation to work out your own salvation, this is not a passive transaction.

d. For His good pleasure:
This is the motive behind God’s work in our life. He does so because it gives Him pleasure to do it.

(David Guzik)
 
Fastfredy0 said:
....... because the cause of faith is something one does independent of God it is a WORK (dictionary definition of WORK is a physical or mental task done to achieve a purpose)
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You can call believing whatever you want. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible plainly says it is through believing that a person becomes righteous (justified), not works.

The works gospel is not defined as you doing anything independent of God in order to become righteous. It is defined as doing righteous work in order for God to declare you righteous on the merit of that righteous work. Instead, a person becomes righteous in God's sight by receiving God's forgiveness apart from the performance of righteous work.

That is what it means to be justified by faith vs. justified by works. That faith is NOT the very works that it is being contrasted with!
 
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