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Is believing/faith a work ?

Fastfredy0 said:
Under the synergistic system both man and God must do WORK to be saved
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You're making the thing that Paul says justifies (faith) the very thing that Paul says can not justify!

So you have a gospel where a person is neither justified by faith nor works but by nothing at all. But the Bible plainly says a man is in fact justified by faith.
 
brightfame52 said:
ffo



Both of these systems are works, because scripture teaches that a person believes because they have already been Justified by the Blood of Christ.
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...Justified by the blood of Christ through faith. But you have justification occurring before faith. But the Bible is very clear, justification is by faith. Faith first. THEN justification.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You can call believing whatever you want. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible plainly says it is through believing that a person becomes righteous (justified), not works.
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Agreed. Technically, we don't become righteous (sinless) but Christ's righteousness is imputed to us (R.C. believe it is infused) and thus we are justified.
Aside: I sometimes wonder how much of the Bible is plainly stated given the disagreement on most points.

Jethro Bodine said:
The works gospel is not defined as you doing anything independent of God in order to become righteous. It is defined as doing righteous work in order for God to declare you righteous on the merit of that righteous work. Instead, a person becomes righteous in God's sight by receiving God's forgiveness apart from the performance of righteous work.
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Agreed, sort of.
WORKS and WORKS GOSPEL are defined differently IMO.
WORKS is simply anything you do to accomplish a purpose. (see your dictionary)
WORKS GOSPEL is "grace plus works" https://www.gotquestions.org/false-gospel.html Gal. 1:6-9
Synergists believe in WORKS GOSPEL to varying degrees. At a minimum they believe saving faith is what they must do and not what God does for them.
Gal. 5:2 goes on to say that if you believe you must be circumcised to be saved then Paul's gospel is of no use to you. So if you believe you did something independent of God to be saved, like wear socks on Sunday then :chin ... then hopefully the gospel is only of no account if you got circumcised to be saved as opposed to circumcision being a mere example. Anyways, not my problem as I believe in Grace (God) ALONE.


Jethro Bodine said:
That is what it means to be justified by faith vs. justified by works. That faith is NOT the very works that it is being contrasted with!
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Again, Faith would be your work if you are the cause of believing rather than God. It is so by definition... something you do to accomplish a purpose. Look at a dictionary.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Who told you that is what the definition of the works gospel is????
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The bible tells us what works gospel is ... .see Galatians 1:6-9 and Galatians 5:2-6

"Salvation is provided in Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone (Ephesians 2:8–9). No person is perfect, and no human action can make a person right before a sinless, holy God. No one can earn or merit salvation, no matter how “religious” he or she is or how meritorious the work seems to be." https://www.gotquestions.org/false-gospel.html
... so if you think you did something to merit salvation then you believe in a WORKS GOSPEL


@brightfame52 said: ffo
Both of these systems are works, because scripture teaches that a person believes because they have already been Justified by the Blood of Christ.
Jethro Bodine said:
...Justified by the blood of Christ through faith. But you have justification occurring before faith. But the Bible is very clear, justification is by faith. Faith first. THEN justification.
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Agrees with Jethro. Romans 5:1 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5; Galatians 2:16
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You're making the thing that Paul says justifies (faith) the very thing that Paul says can not justify!
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The statement is unclear. I think you referring to WORKS salvation, but I am not going to guess.


Jethro Bodine said:
So you have a gospel where a person is neither justified by faith nor works but by nothing at all. But the Bible plainly says a man is in fact justified by faith.
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NOT what I said. The order of salvation that I propose is:
God regenerates you --> this causes you to believe --> this causes you to be justified (note: I did nothing to save myself and therefore I did NO WORK. What I did was a result of God's work, not mine)

Now, if one believes the Faith comes via your FREE WILL ... now you have an issue as your faith is a work you must do to merit salvation.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
...Justified by the blood of Christ through faith. But you have justification occurring before faith. But the Bible is very clear, justification is by faith. Faith first. THEN justification.
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Yes Justification before God is prior to faith, did Christ die for you before you believed ?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You can call believing whatever you want. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible plainly says it is through believing that a person becomes righteous (justified), not works.

The works gospel is not defined as you doing anything independent of God in order to become righteous. It is defined as doing righteous work in order for God to declare you righteous on the merit of that righteous work. Instead, a person becomes righteous in God's sight by receiving God's forgiveness apart from the performance of righteous work.

That is what it means to be justified by faith vs. justified by works. That faith is NOT the very works that it is being contrasted with!
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If you condition your salvation on something you did, its works and condemned by God.
 
fastf

What is the consequences of WORKS GOSPEL?
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It depends on whether or not one is elect or not. You should know already what the plight of the non elect is, do you know ?

Technically true ... but most people are speaking on a chronological time line and the bible says "we are justified by faith'.
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I dont care. Lets go with what is technically true. Now how about you, did Christ pay your sin debt before you believed, before you were born even ? Yes or no
 
What is the consequences of WORKS GOSPEL?
brightfame52 said:
It depends on whether or not one is elect or not. You should know already what the plight of the non elect is, do you know ?
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My question had little to do with the elect/unelect, but I can phrase it another way ...
1. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must be circumcised to be saved? Ref: Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation].
2. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must be baptized to be saved?
3. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must do ... I think I'll just ask 2 questions.

I think these are YES/NO questions.


brightfame52 said:
I dont care. Lets go with what is technically true. Now how about you, did Christ pay your sin debt before you believed, before you were born even ? Yes or no
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Well, if you don't care if I give an answer from an eternal (outside of time) or within time point of view how will you know context of my answer?
In time Christ paid for my sin 2000 years ago. In time I wasn't regenerated till 60ish years ago at which time I had faith which caused be to be justified at that point in time.
Outside of time ... God is eternal and does not change. He is outside of time and not limited by time. He is everywhere and in every time. A 1000 years is as a day and a day as 1000 years...so everything is a done deal and words like "before" in your question have no meaning.
Aside: That being said, "God being eternal" is somewhat outside of our comprehension.
 
2Nomad1c said:
Works is never a part of salvation. Saw a video that clarifies the paradox of faith and works. When rightly dividing verses for the church and tribulation it really clarified it for me and provides me the peace and assurance of salvation. Let me know what you guys think.
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Too much information to glean out whether or not human works are a part of salvation for me.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Now, if one believes the Faith comes via your FREE WILL ... now you have an issue as your faith is a work you must do to merit salvation.
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Faith comes from God. It comes freely to a person through the hearing of the testimony of God. We decide if we retain the word of faith in believing and are saved, or cast it away in unbelief and are lost. If you think retaining the word of God in one’s heart is a work of self righteousness consider these verses:

1 John 2:24-25
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 4:14
Hebrews 10:23
 
Fastfredy0 said:
... so if you think you did something to merit salvation then you believe in a WORKS GOSPEL
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Being justified by receiving God’s forgiveness by faith is CONTRASTED with being justified by doing righteous works. You’re literally saying the very thing that Paul says justifies is actually the same thing that can not justify. Even though Paul delineates the two very clearly.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Faith would be your work if you are the cause of believing rather than God.
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The faith that comes with the hearing of the word is the cause of one’s believing.


Fastfredy0 said:
It is so by definition... something you do to accomplish a purpose. Look at a dictionary.
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Who told you the works gospel is defined as doing anything at all to be justified? That’s not the works gospel. Paul said very clearly that the thing you are do to be justified/saved is believe in God’s forgiveness by faith. In a works gospel, rather than be forgiven in order to become righteous, you do works of righteousness to become righteous. THAT is the works gospel. Being forgiven through faith in God is NOT the works gospel.
 
fastf

My question had little to do with the elect/unelect, but I can phrase it another way ...
1. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must be circumcised to be saved? Ref: Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation].
2. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must be baptized to be saved?
3. Can someone be among the elect if they think they must do ... I think I'll just ask 2 questions.

I think these are YES/NO questions.
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Until the elect are converted to the Truth, which they will be, they may believe anything. The elect were before conversion deceived, Paul said that Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Well, if you don't care if I give an answer from an eternal (outside of time) or within time point of view how will you know context of my answer?
In time Christ paid for my sin 2000 years ago. In time I wasn't regenerated till 60ish years ago at which time I had faith which caused be to be justified at that point in time.
Outside of time ... God is eternal and does not change. He is outside of time and not limited by time. He is everywhere and in every time. A 1000 years is as a day and a day as 1000 years...so everything is a done deal and words like "before" in your question have no meaning.
Aside: That being said, "God being eternal" is somewhat outside of our comprehension.
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Okay good, lets go with in time when Christ paid for your sins 2000 yrs ago, and before you were regenerated, before you had faith, while unregenerated, were you Justified before God on the sole basis of Christ having paid for your sins ? Yes or No please
 
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