Is believing/faith a work ?

[Jethro Bodine]

Thats works. Thats basing righteousness on something you did.

That's not the definition of the works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, salvation is given based on our obedience to God through accurate faith.

But how were you justified (made right with God)? That is the question.

 

[brightfame52]

That's not the definition of the works gospel.

Yes it is.

 

[jaybo]

Isn't that what those passages indicate 52? What Christian does not work? Are you saying a Christian does not have to work? If you want salvation, obedience is a requirement.

This is absolutely wrong! Salvation is by God's grace and our faith -- entirely. God can't be bribed!

 

[jaybo]

Yes, salvation is given based on our obedience to God through accurate faith.

By grace only!

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. "

 

[brightfame52]

This is absolutely wrong! Salvation is by God's grace and our faith -- entirely. God can't be bribed!

Thats works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes it is.

No, the works gospel is when you do righteous things to be right with God. As opposed to the gospel of grace where you are made right with God by having your sins forgiven through faith in that forgiveness.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Okay good, lets go with in time when Christ paid for your sins 2000 yrs ago, and before you were regenerated, before you had faith, while unregenerated, were you Justified before God on the sole basis of Christ having paid for your sins ? Yes or No please

Hardly fair to ask for a YES or NO when you didn't answer my two Yes/No questions .. but anyways ...

In a time (chronological) sequence I was not justified before I was regenerated.
The logical sequence is: Regeneration --> saving faith --> justification
,,, since we are justified by faith and since the question asked if I was justified before having saving faith the answer is NO. In other words, if I had died before believing I would not have been justified and would have gone to hell.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paul plainly says there is no boast of merit in being justified by faith:

Premise 1:

Paul plainly says there is no boast of merit in being justified by faith

Conclusion: Faith via free will is not possible for we would have reason to boast for only those who thru their work of faith are saved; they were more righteous then those who did not believe.

it is incumbent on the believer whether or not they receive, retain, or reject God's free gift of faith, not God. God in his grace simply makes it available:

Premise 1: Not saved by WORKS (Eph. 2:8-9)
premise 2: Work is something you do to accomplish a purpose (dictionary)
Conclusion: One cannot maintain one's salvation by works

Not much sense continuing ... we have a communication issue.

 

[brightfame52]

No, the works gospel is when you do righteous things to be right with God. As opposed to the gospel of grace where you are made right with God by having your sins forgiven through faith in that forgiveness.

Works gospel is when you condition Salvation on something you do !

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

NO. In other words, if I had died before believing I would not have been justified and would have gone to hell.

Then thats works fastfreddy, Justification before God based upon what you did, and what was in you.

Its saying that what Christ did alone for you[Shedding His Blood] was insufficient to Justify you before Gods Law and Justice.

 

[Cooper]

Yes it is.

brightfame52. Dare you deny scripture and Jesus?

Mar_5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh_14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh_14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh_20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Conclusion: Faith via free will is not possible for we would have reason to boast for only those who thru their work of faith are saved; they were more righteous then those who did not believe.

Choosing to believe or being compelled to believe is not you being righteous in order to be declared righteous in God's sight. That's not what righteousness through believing means, so any argument about freewill believing vs. forced believing has no bearing on the 'works vs. faith' argument.

See, the problem is, Calvinist's have lost site of the meaning of the 'works vs. faith' argument. What distinguishes believing from works is believing means you become righteous by having your sins forgiven, by faith in that forgiveness, while works means you (try to) become righteous in God's sight by being righteous.

So with that misunderstanding straightened out you can see that your argument for freewill believing vs. forced believing is not the issue at all. The issue is whether or not you believe that you are made righteous in God's sight by receiving God's forgiveness, by faith (forced or freewill, doesn't matter), or if you think you are made righteous in God's sight by being righteous in God's sight.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Premise 1: Not saved by WORKS (Eph. 2:8-9)
premise 2: Work is something you do to accomplish a purpose (dictionary)
Conclusion: One cannot maintain one's salvation by works

This completely ignores the scriptures that show us the 'work' of believing, if that's what you want to call it, is NOT included in the works that can not justify. You simply do not understand the 'works vs. faith' argument. If you did, you would not be trying to make a 'forced vs. freewill faith' argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not much sense continuing ... we have a communication issue.

You could tell me why you think these verses do not mean it is incumbent on the person, not God, to receive and retain the word of faith:

1 John 2:24-25
1 Timothy 1:19
Hebrews 4:14
Hebrews 10:23

I'll hear you out.

It is incumbent on God to make the word of faith available, but not incumbent on God that we receive and retain it. That is up to us. With loads of God's loving encouragement, of course.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52. Dare you deny scripture and Jesus?

Mar_5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh_14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh_14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh_20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
.

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works and denies Christ !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Works gospel is when you condition Salvation on something you do !

No, that's not the definition of the works gospel.

The works gospel is where you do something righteous in order to be seen as righteous in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation. As opposed to the gospel of grace where you become righteous in God's sight and eligible for salvation by having your unrighteousness forgiven through faith in that forgiveness.

 

[brightfame52]

No, that's not the definition of the works gospel.

The works gospel is where you do something righteous in order to be seen as righteous in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation. As opposed to the gospel of grace where you become righteous in God's sight and eligible for salvation by having your unrighteousness forgiven through faith in that forgiveness.

Works salvation is when you meet a condition, then God saves you because you met or performed the condition, whether its believing or climbing the highest mountain.

 

[Cooper]

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works and denies Christ !

You mean Christians should not believe in Jesus, because you mistakenly think it is works!
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Works salvation is when you meet a condition, then God saves you because you met or performed the condition, whether its believing or climbing the highest mountain.

Uh, no. That is not the works gospel.

Receiving the forgiveness of God and the imputation of His righteousness by faith is not the works gospel.