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Is believing/faith a work ?

brightfame52 said:
If you condition Salvation on what you do, congrats, you believe in Salvation by works.
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When we are ill, we go to the doctor, and HE heals us.

When we are sin laden, we go to the Saviour and HE heals us.

We cannot save ourselves. Neither are we saved by what WE do.

Jesus is the great physician.
.
 
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Cooper said:
When we are ill, we go to the doctor, and HE heals us.

When we are sin laden, we go to the Saviour and HE heals us.

We are not saved by what WE do.
.
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You are doubleminded/inconsistent, now you saying a person isnt saved by what he does. You dont know what you believe.
 
brightfame52 said:
If you condition Salvation on what you do, congrats, you believe in Salvation by works.
Click to expand...
Jethro Bodine said:
It's a conditional statement. IF you do this, this will happen. IF you CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART, you will be saved.
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Brightfame does NOT articulate the REFORMED position accurately. The best places to have an exact understanding of the REFORMED position is the Westminster Confession of Faith or the 1689 London Baptist Confession which is based on the former and is only slightly different.

So what does the 1689 London Baptist Confession say about SAVING FAITH ...

Chapter 14. Of Saving Faith​

1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, 1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; 2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. 3

1. 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8
2. Romans 10:14,17
3. Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32

So God enables (causes) the elect (those God chooses) to believe. The elect believe, God does not believe for them and this belief saves them. No one is saved if they don't believe with Bright calls a work.

But why is this not a work by the elect?
The elect CANNOT believe from their own resources, thus the WORK is NOT that of the elect, but of God. It's like a carpenter (God) putting a nail (man) through wood. God is doing the work and man is simply the instrument God uses. Man thus does not credit for the work though he is involved. God gets 100% credit for the work of enabling man to believe.

Bright's statement is not REFORMED when he says "If you condition salvation on what you do it is Salvation by works".
By his understanding of works everyone is saved by works. He doesn't seem to understand the subtle different that the 1689 London Baptist Confession alludes to. That God ENABLES man to believe. Man has no power to believe on his own.

Instead of saying:
"If you condition salvation on what you do, it is Salvation by works" Bright should be saying:
"If you condition salvation on what you do as being independent of God, it is Salvation by works"
This is the REFORMED position. I knew Bright's the REFORMED Ambassador ... but he's got the REFORMED perspective wrong.

Iconoclast or atpollard ... you guys know REFORMED theology .... maybe you can straighten this out .. maybe you will surprise me and say Bright is right .... (I doubt it)

Anyways, that is true reformed theology. Whether it's biblical or not, I'll let you debate amongst yourselves.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Brightfame does NOT articulate the REFORMED position accurately. The best places to have an exact understanding of the REFORMED position is the Westminster Confession of Faith or the 1689 London Baptist Confession which is based on the former and is only slightly different.

So what does the 1689 London Baptist Confession say about SAVING FAITH ...

Chapter 14. Of Saving Faith​

1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, 1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; 2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened. 3

1. 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8
2. Romans 10:14,17
3. Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32

So God enables (causes) the elect (those God chooses) to believe. The elect believe, God does not believe for them and this belief saves them. No one is saved if they don't believe with Bright calls a work.

But why is this not a work by the elect?
The elect CANNOT believe from their own resources, thus the WORK is NOT that of the elect, but of God. It's like a carpenter (God) putting a nail (man) through wood. God is doing the work and man is simply the instrument God uses. Man thus does not credit for the work though he is involved. God gets 100% credit for the work of enabling man to believe.

Bright's statement is not REFORMED when he says "If you condition salvation on what you do it is Salvation by works".
By his understanding of works everyone is saved by works. He doesn't seem to understand the subtle different that the 1689 London Baptist Confession alludes to. That God ENABLES man to believe. Man has no power to believe on his own.

Instead of saying:
"If you condition salvation on what you do, it is Salvation by works" Bright should be saying:
"If you condition salvation on what you do as being independent of God, it is Salvation by works"
This is the REFORMED position. I knew Bright's the REFORMED Ambassador ... but he's got the REFORMED perspective wrong.

Iconoclast or atpollard ... you guys know REFORMED theology .... maybe you can straighten this out .. maybe you will surprise me and say Bright is right .... (I doubt it)

Anyways, that is true reformed theology. Whether it's biblical or not, I'll let you debate amongst yourselves.
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One has to be and is saved/regenerated before they can believe. When the elect believe its an evidence that they have already been in a saved regenerate state. Thats my position.

Also a regenerate person has been Justified before God before they were regenerated, Justification before God was accomplished at the Cross even before the elect were regenerated, and believed the Gospel.
 
brightfame52 said:
One has to be and is saved/regenerated before they can believe. When the elect believe its an evidence that they have already been in a saved regenerate state. Thats my position.
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This is in accordance with REFORMED doctrine.

brightfame52 said:
Also a regenerate person has been Justified before God before they were regenerated, Justification before God was accomplished at the Cross even before the elect were regenerated, and believed the Gospel.
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Well, there are two ways to look at this. This is one way to look at it. The elect are/were/will always be God's sheep even before the foundation of the earth. God is outside of time so I don't understand that aspect well. From another viewpoint of time we are justified by faith (Roman 5:1) and obviously that faith was initiated by God's regeneration at a point in time.

But ... again ... my beef with you is your insistence that if we do anything that is needed for salvation then you claim it is SALVATION BY WORKS. We are saved by OUR FAITH. We are the ones doing the believing; God is not doing it for us.
Now, the Free Will side says we believe independent of God. This is WORKS SALVATION. But you and I know we DO NOT believe independent of God. God regenerates us which causes us to believe or as the London Baptist Confession says: "the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls".


So your statement below is false.
brightfame52 said:
If you condition Salvation on what you do, congrats, you believe in Salvation by works.
Click to expand...
Rather, we are saved by our belief. It is not works salvation because only God can enable (cause) us to believe. He does ALL the WORK. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
See Monergism vs. Synergism at https://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
When we talk about monergism vs. synergism, theologically speaking, we’re talking about who brings about our salvation. Monergism, which comes from a compound Greek word that means “to work alone,” is the view that God alone effects our salvation. This view is held primarily by Calvinistic and Reformed traditions and is closely tied to what is known as the “doctrines of grace.”
 
This is salvation:

Romans 10:5-13 [NLT]
5 For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith's way of getting right with God says, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don't say, 'Who will go down to the place of the dead?' (to bring Christ back to life again)." 8 In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."​

- God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
(Argue on if you feel that you must, but “As for me and my house, we will trust in the LORD!”)
 
Fastfredy0 said:
This is in accordance with REFORMED doctrine.


Well, there are two ways to look at this. This is one way to look at it. The elect are/were/will always be God's sheep even before the foundation of the earth. God is outside of time so I don't understand that aspect well. From another viewpoint of time we are justified by faith (Roman 5:1) and obviously that faith was initiated by God's regeneration at a point in time.

But ... again ... my beef with you is your insistence that if we do anything that is needed for salvation then you claim it is SALVATION BY WORKS. We are saved by OUR FAITH. We are the ones doing the believing; God is not doing it for us.
Now, the Free Will side says we believe independent of God. This is WORKS SALVATION. But you and I know we DO NOT believe independent of God. God regenerates us which causes us to believe or as the London Baptist Confession says: "the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls".


So your statement below is false.

Rather, we are saved by our belief. It is not works salvation because only God can enable (cause) us to believe. He does ALL the WORK. John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
See Monergism vs. Synergism at https://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
When we talk about monergism vs. synergism, theologically speaking, we’re talking about who brings about our salvation. Monergism, which comes from a compound Greek word that means “to work alone,” is the view that God alone effects our salvation. This view is held primarily by Calvinistic and Reformed traditions and is closely tied to what is known as the “doctrines of grace.”
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Im sorry but you still promote salvation/justification by works, by what a person does.
 
jaybo said:
How do you know what most people know? Are you playing God?
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I am or am not one of God's sent disciples jaybo. My fruits should identify. I made that judgment on what literally hundreds of people incorrectly say about the term sir. I would be most happy to hear what you understand it to mean, and then we can compare notes sir.
 
atpollard said:
This is salvation:

Romans 10:5-13 [NLT]
5 For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. 6 But faith's way of getting right with God says, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who will go up to heaven?' (to bring Christ down to earth). 7 And don't say, 'Who will go down to the place of the dead?' (to bring Christ back to life again)." 8 In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."​

- God said it, I believe it, that settles it.
(Argue on if you feel that you must, but “As for me and my house, we will trust in the LORD!”)
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Thanks for the trite slogans. Anything original to contribute?
 
jaybo said:
Thanks for the trite slogans. Anything original to contribute?
Click to expand...
Sure, here is something (although probably not completely original):

  • After 2500+ posts there can be nothing to say that has not already been said.
  • After reading the last few hundred of those posts, y'all have long since stopped listening and are merely waiting for your turn to post your blog monologue past one another.
  • I only wade back into this pointless morass when I am summoned by name.

That you found a direct quote from the word of God - (a full paragraph presenting a thought in context rather than a fraction of a verse ripped from its context as a talking point) - about SALVATION as something worthless in a TOPIC: "Is believing/faith a work ?" ... speaks volumes about what you are looking for and what you are not looking for.

That is my contribution to your fight (offered because you chose to quote my post and thus invite my response).
 
brightfame52 said:
Im sorry but you still promote salvation/justification by works, by what a person does.
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OK, I will play by your definitions.

Premise 1: If a person does any work for his salvation it is works salvation by Bright's definition
Premise 2: Bright believes in Christ which is needed for his salvation
Conclusion: Bright's faith (belief) is a work used to saved himself and thus he believes in WORKS SALVATION
 
Fastfredy0 said:
OK, I will play by your definitions.

Premise 1: If a person does any work for his salvation it is works salvation by Bright's definition
Premise 2: Bright believes in Christ which is needed for his salvation
Conclusion: Bright's faith (belief) is a work used to saved himself and thus he believes in WORKS SALVATION
Click to expand...
I think the point of his argument is he was already saved when the phenomenon of believing occurred in him. Believing being the result of having already been regenerated/born again by the Spirit, not the 'what must I do to be saved' of salvation as presented in scripture.
 
atpollard said:
Sure, here is something (although probably not completely original):

  • After 2500+ posts there can be nothing to say that has not already been said.
  • After reading the last few hundred of those posts, y'all have long since stopped listening and are merely waiting for your turn to post your blog monologue past one another.
  • I only wade back into this pointless morass when I am summoned by name.

That you found a direct quote from the word of God - (a full paragraph presenting a thought in context rather than a fraction of a verse ripped from its context as a talking point) - about SALVATION as something worthless in a TOPIC: "Is believing/faith a work ?" ... speaks volumes about what you are looking for and what you are not looking for.

That is my contribution to your fight (offered because you chose to quote my post and thus invite my response).
Click to expand...
You wrote, "I only wade back into this pointless morass when I am summoned by name." Thank you so much for your lowering yourself to participate!

So if you say "After 2500+ posts there can be nothing to say that has not already been said" why are you posting anything?

And "After reading the last few hundred of those posts, you have long since stopped listening and are merely waiting for your turn to post your blog monologue."

You do realize that you have a real ego problem, don't you?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I think the point of his argument is he was already saved when the phenomenon of believing occurred in him. Believing being the result of having already been regenerated/born again by the Spirit, not the 'what must I do to be saved' of salvation as presented in scripture.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know he believes believing is the result of regeneration. But it's brightfame52 that continues to believe (have faith) and this is WORK SALVATION by his definition unless he defines WORK other than found in the dictionary.
In short, he is doing something to be saved and he defines that as WORKS SALVATION.
 
atpollard said:
Sure, here is something (although probably not completely original):

  • After 2500+ posts there can be nothing to say that has not already been said.
  • After reading the last few hundred of those posts, y'all have long since stopped listening and are merely waiting for your turn to post your blog monologue past one another.
  • I only wade back into this pointless morass when I am summoned by name.

That you found a direct quote from the word of God - (a full paragraph presenting a thought in context rather than a fraction of a verse ripped from its context as a talking point) - about SALVATION as something worthless in a TOPIC: "Is believing/faith a work ?" ... speaks volumes about what you are looking for and what you are not looking for.

That is my contribution to your fight (offered because you chose to quote my post and thus invite my response).
Click to expand...
Of course 'believing' is something a person does. The question is, is that the doing of a works gospel? No, of course not. I think Brightframe is the only one who thinks that.

Calvy's think the doing of 'believing' is a potential that God builds into a few elect people, chosen from the foundation of the world to be the only ones who possess that potential. And so when the gospel comes to their hearing 'believing' is aroused and they are saved.

Non-Calvy thinking says that 'believing' is aroused in the heart of a person when they hear the word of faith, the gospel, and they choose whether or not to receive and retain what the Holy Spirit is illuminating them about. God in his omniscience knows that only a few will receive and retain what the Holy Spirit illumines in them. The few that do, they are the ones God then elects on the basis of their retained faith in the gospel of Jesus.
 
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