Is believing/faith a work ?

[Fastfredy0]

I heard Piper, MacArthur and Sproul explain how God created even evil...Sproul, as usual, as the most reluctant to admit this. Do you have any knowledge of the above? I've posted this before, with videos from YouTube, but I guess the calvinists here don't even believe their own eyes and ears and told me I was wrong. (about God creating evil from the reformed POV)

More falsehoods. Give us a quote (author, book title and page number). Trust me, she won't respond.

You're much better on your posts about the idol worshiping of the actual blood and body of Christ at the mass.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God creating evil is a controversial doctrine even among Reformed.

According to Augustine and other it is not possible to create evil because evil is not a thing.

Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself.

Augustine and Thomas Aquinas use the words negation and privation to define evil. Negation talks in terms of what something is not. For example, we say God is infinite which means He is not finite. Evil in this sense can only be defined against the backdrop of what is good. In biblical terms, evil is defined by words like ungodliness, unrighteousness, injustice, so that the term is used as the negation, the opposite of the positive thing that is being affirmed. R.C. Sproul

He seems to have eventually overcome his reluctance … he founded Ligonier Ministries.

Sproul was also an Arminian when he came to Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

More falsehoods. Give us a quote (author, book title and page number). Trust me, she won't respond.

You're much better on your posts about the idol worshiping of the actual blood and body of Christ at the mass.

You're either suffering from unrequited love, or you're missing that one final screw.

Stop trolling me.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe that's an over-simplification (for lack of better words) of the text. If we take that literally, breathing, thinking, walking, talking, every single function is a work. And what Jesus is requiring would be impractical because if we aren't "working" we are decomposing/dead. Only dead people don't work.

The work Jesus is refering to is this: Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Works here in the greek is: ergon, a nueter noun, which (according to the KJV) is translated as work 152x, deed 22x, doing 1x, and labour 1x. It means:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied/that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
_____________________________________
Perphaps another explanation is that the work which Jesus is saying doesn't get you into heaven alone is labouring and doing good deed in order to achieve heaven, but the greek work you mentioned simply means to have trust and confidence in. Which is us actually surrendering to Christ which is exactly what we are called to do. It's like falling backwards in Christ arms. Now faith without works is dead though, as it says in James, not that faith needs works but true faith automatically produces work. If you have faith in a chair, you sit on it, if you don't you find another one! But Jesus isn't saying works are excluded, but works don't get you in heaven ALONE. It's like doing and indicative without the imperative. It's not to become a child of God I obey Him, it's because I am a loved, cherished, adored, and precious child of God I do his commandments.

I did a bad job explaining... you bring up a good point though.

It doesnt matter how you slice this, if we make anything we do a condition to get saved, its works

 

[Fastfredy0]

Stop trolling me.

Stop making false statements ... or prove me wrong and give quotes (title, author, page #)

You claim Reform Theology teaches God is Unjust, Unmerciful and Unloving ... go to one of the confessions are bring out the quote. You claim Piper and MacArthur said God is the author of evil ... give us the quote.
You are much better at support for the R.C. mass doctrine.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It doesnt matter how you slice this, if we make anything we do a condition to get saved, its works

So you're saying that my believing in Christ for salvation is a work?????

 

[GodsGrace]

Stop making false statements ... or prove me wrong and give quotes (title, author, page #)

You claim Reform Theology teaches God is Unjust, Unmerciful and Unloving ... go to one of the confessions are bring out the quote. You claim Piper and MacArthur said God is the author of evil ... give us the quote.
You are much better at support for the R.C. mass doctrine.

I NEVER said reformed theology teaches the above.

But that's how it turns out.

I claim
I claim....

Go find out.
You're the calvinist.
Piper, MacArthur and Sproul are STILL on YouTube. It's just a click away.

 

[Edward]

Works salvation is when you meet a condition, then God saves you because you met or performed the condition, whether its believing or climbing the highest mountain.

I believe that you are not understanding the difference between Salvation and Inheritance.

Our Salvation is a free Gift from God and can only be based on God's grace through our faith in Him. (No works so far!)

What did Jesus say? I come and I bring my reward with me...we are to receive an Inheritance as our part in the Kingdom of God because we are children of God. Now everyones inheritance is given in different measures. Some will get more, some less. The first will be last and the last first. We can build up our inheritance that we will receive in different ways. Scripture does say build up your treasures in heaven. This is what it is talking about! One way to build up your treasures is by doing good works for people.

Remember that time in Church you only had a bunch of $20's and one dollar so only put one dollar in the plate? You don't get nothing for that because your cheap and greedy. But do you remember that other time that you changed that old ladies tire just after you had taken a shower and put on clean clothes and you didn't really want to do it because you'd get yourself dirty again, but you did it anyway because you didn't want to leave her without help? Yes, you'll probably get a new wing on your mansion for doing that one!

When the widow put in two cents into the offering and the rich man gave a lot, Jesus said she put in more than the rich man did, because she gave from her sustenance and he gave from his excess. That's why you would get rewarded more for changing a simple tire because you allowed yourself the sacrifice of getting dirty. You put care for His child above your own! Boom! New wing on the mansion.

That's what works are for and nothing else. No works are involved with Salvation!

 

[Edward]

Faith had nothing to do with saving me, Christ did it all. You condition your salvation on your faith, thats works.

Are you prepared to back up that assertion with scripture?

My guess is you can't.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You claim Reform Theology teaches God is Unjust, Unmerciful and Unloving

Your response:

NEVER said reformed theology teaches the above.

Post #175 of the A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY thread
See link: https://christianforums.net/threads/a-discussion-on-total-depravity.95683/page-9
... and I quote ...

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

I've gone through the Institutes and the WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the God they represent.

You're lying.... here's the proof .... you've done it so often that I started keeping track.
Now, it's possible you don't communicate ideas well. As a representation of the forum I would hope that is not the case. But I assume you mean what you say and you said and I will repeat it word for word per Post #175:

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

I've gone through the Institutes and the WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the God they represent.

STOP IT! ... stop making things up. You done it elsewhere.

______________________________________________
Post 201 of A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY
wondering said:

Because I biblically back up what I state.
Because I quote it from the Institutes and the WCF.

keep your word per Post 201 ... try using quotes ....

 

[atpollard]

Sproul was also an Arminian when he came to Christ.

Who isn’t?
We all think we did everything when we are first starting out … like the child that is helping mommy vacuum (and making the work take twice as long).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Who isn’t?
We all think we did everything when we are first starting out … like the child that is helping mommy vacuum (and making the work take twice as long).

True.... reminds me of your story which is an EXCELLENT ONE. I am sure I was originally an Arminian.
I think my dad was also ... I recall him saying that if he hadn't had Christian parents he would not have become a Christian.
Aside: It is great we have so much reading material (internet) to take advantage of compared to 30 years ago.

Bedtime ... have a 'good one'

 

[Hopeful]

Does God allow us to know what He expects from us to become saved?

According to the "You musn't do anything for salvation or be called a legalist" camp, God expects nothing from us but to roll over and play saved.
Or is that "work" too?

 

[Hopeful]

It doesnt matter how you slice this, if we make anything we do a condition to get saved, its works

I really find fault with any doctrine that makes obeying God a bad thing.
I will work my fingers to the bone, to be saved on the day of judgement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No God does not save people against their will.

I've always understood Calvinism to say that God in essence gives the elect the will to believe. And so I never understood it as God actually going against people's will, but rather that he does not take into consideration what they may or may not want to do concerning the gospel, and instead determines for them that they will possess the will to believe.

In my non-Calvy understanding, inherent in the gospel message itself is the faith needed for a person to know that the gospel message they are hearing and can't see really is true (Romans 10:17, Hebrews 11:1 KJV). And so in that time of revelation and enlightenment when the door of faith is open to them they have the ability via the illumination of the Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6) to choose or reject the gospel according to their own will concerning the matter. But certainly not absent the strong and persuasive force of God to help make the right choice.

 

[brightfame52]

So you're saying that my believing in Christ for salvation is a work?????

It depends. Were you saved/Justified before God before or after you believed in Christ?

 

[brightfame52]

I believe that you are not understanding the difference between Salvation and Inheritance.

Our Salvation is a free Gift from God and can only be based on God's grace through our faith in Him. (No works so far!)

What did Jesus say? I come and I bring my reward with me...we are to receive an Inheritance as our part in the Kingdom of God because we are children of God. Now everyones inheritance is given in different measures. Some will get more, some less. The first will be last and the last first. We can build up our inheritance that we will receive in different ways. Scripture does say build up your treasures in heaven. This is what it is talking about! One way to build up your treasures is by doing good works for people.

Remember that time in Church you only had a bunch of $20's and one dollar so only put one dollar in the plate? You don't get nothing for that because your cheap and greedy. But do you remember that other time that you changed that old ladies tire just after you had taken a shower and put on clean clothes and you didn't really want to do it because you'd get yourself dirty again, but you did it anyway because you didn't want to leave her without help? Yes, you'll probably get a new wing on your mansion for doing that one!

When the widow put in two cents into the offering and the rich man gave a lot, Jesus said she put in more than the rich man did, because she gave from her sustenance and he gave from his excess. That's why you would get rewarded more for changing a simple tire because you allowed yourself the sacrifice of getting dirty. You put care for His child above your own! Boom! New wing on the mansion.

That's what works are for and nothing else. No works are involved with Salvation!

If you condition salvation on anything you do it is works!

 

[brightfame52]

Are you prepared to back up that assertion with scripture?

My guess is you can't.

I have given my scriptural basis already.

 

[Edward]

If you condition salvation on anything you do it is works!

Your comp[rehension isn't very good is it? You did not see me condition Salvation on works. You did see me condition our reward on works.

So you return to one hand clapping.

 

[Edward]

I have given my scriptural basis already.

Well your right, I havent read this entire thread so maybe you did give it before. But if you're not willing to do a copy/paste or at least say which post you posted it in, then that hurts any credibility that you think you have.

Only one hand clapping there, huh?