Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

Thank God for Rom 8:2's answer to our, and Paul's, pre-conversion plight.
It is written..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

And Rom 7:24? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Already answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Rom 7 is a sort of transition point between Rom 6's death of the flesh and Rom 8's walk in the Spirit.

Actually, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "transition point"? If, per Paul's statement, his mind served the law of God (the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus), then Paul had to have been converted/saved at that time. Paul tells us that he had been made free from the law of sin and death, so he was already converted then.

[Rom 7:22 KJV] 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[Rom 8:1 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[OzSpen]

Rabbit trail and evasion.

I beg your pardon! Works emanate from the fact you are born again. They come as a result of faith. They are not part of faith.

Oz

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "transition point"? If, per Paul's statement, his mind served the law of God (the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus), then Paul had to have been converted/saved at that time. Paul tells us that he had been made free from the law of sin and death, so he was already converted then.

[Rom 7:22 KJV] 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[Rom 8:1 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yes indeed, he was converted when he wrote all his epistles...but in the middle of Rom 7, he is approaching his audience from the perspective of still being unconverted.
Verse 5, for instance..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Clearly, he is referring to a past time.
He makes reference to the past again in verse 18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
As Rom 6 has already described the death of the flesh, (Rom 6:6), the past reference is clear..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

He uses chapter 7 to revisit his old life while under the Law, and failing to live up to it.
Rom 8 makes further delineation between old, in the flesh, and new, walking in the Spirit.
Rom 7:22 showed what he wanted while under the Law, but was unable to satisfy while still in a "fleshly" mind set.
Rom 8 shows what prevails with the new "Spiritual" mind-set.

 

[JLB]

After my death with Jesus, I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Continued sin wouldn't be a new life.

Did your physical body literally die, and do you literally have a new sinless physical body?

 

[brightfame52]

I beg your pardon! Works emanate from the fact you are born again. They come as a result of faith. They are not part of faith.

Oz

More rabbit trail. You may need to read the Op so you can understand whats being said,

 

[brightfame52]

If and when someone teaches that salvation/justification is based upon a condition performed by man, lie faith or repentance, water baptism, its synonymous to teaching that they are justified/saved by a law, a work of theirs, so by their merit, which is contrary to grace, Rom 4:4

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[OzSpen]

More rabbit trail. You may need to read the Op so you can understand whats being said,

 

[rogerg]

es indeed, he was converted when he wrote all his epistles...but in the middle of Rom 7, he is approaching his audience from the perspective of still being unconverted.
Verse 5, for instance..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

Sorry, still don't understand. First, just to be clear (and I'm sure you know this), Paul didn't write the Bible, God did, each and every word. That notwithstanding, and just to level-set, would you mind restating your bottom-line point to tie it all together cause I've lost it?

Anyway, a few questions:

He makes reference to the past again in verse 18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Verse 18 doesn't sound like it pertains to the past to me: the "that in me" and "in my flesh" describes present.

Rom 7:22 showed what he wanted while under the Law, but was unable to satisfy while still in a "fleshly" mind set.

Again, 7:22 does not seem to reference the past as it is saying that he (in the present) "delights in the law of God"

[Rom 7:22 KJV] 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 8 shows what prevails with the new "Spiritual" mind-set.

The purpose of Romans 8 generally seems to be to explain to us what Christ alone achieved for us; that is, it ties it all back to Christ. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "prevails with the new "Spiritual" mind"" -- if it is that a new spiritual mind (of itself) made anything to "prevail", I would have to disagree, as everything that is "new" spiritually, to include the mind, is given by/through Christ.
If you meant Romans 8 teaches that amongst the gifts of Christ, is also a new spiritual mind, I would definitely agree.

We might be saying the same things but I'm just unsure

 

[Hopeful]

Did your physical body literally die, and do you literally have a new sinless physical body?

Yes, to both questions.
The wages of sin is death, as Rom 6:23 spells out..."For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

I was paid my "wage", buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
And as Paul wrote..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

Do you think Jesus would reside in a sin-laden body/temple?

 

[JLB]

Yes, to both questions.

Wow!

If your physical body literally died then that’s it, you will go and stand before the Lord to face your judgement.


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27


The fact is, your physical body doesn’t literally die at water baptism.


Those who are in Christ will be resurrected at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Sorry, still don't understand. First, just to be clear (and I'm sure you know this), Paul didn't write the Bible, God did, each and every word. That notwithstanding, and just to level-set, would you mind restating your bottom-line point to tie it all together cause I've lost it?

No problem.
Paul, by the grace of God, wrote Rom 7 from two different perspectives.
The past of his life and the present life.
He used the present-historical tense, (also called present-narrative), to describe, (narrate), were he was and what he thought while still a man walking after the flesh.
Though he was now walking in the Spirit.

Anyway, a few questions:
Verse 18 doesn't sound like it pertains to the past to me: the "that in me" and "in my flesh" describes present.

Ask yourself...Was Paul still carnally minded after his conversion to Christianity?
NO!!!
He is stating a prior condition.
Verse 16 is based on Paul's condition during the time from whence he is narrating. ie...as verse 14 says..."For we know that the law is spiritual but I am carnal, sold under sin."
Paul is pointing out that though he wanted to keep the Law, he couldn't...as a man walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.

Again, 7:22 does not seem to reference the past as it is saying that he (in the present) "delights in the law of God"
[Rom 7:22 KJV] 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul is pointing out that though he wanted to keep the Law, he couldn't...as a man walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.
Verses 23 and 24 conclude his lament...from his past.
Verse 25 wraps it up..."I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (for delivery from "this body of death" in verse 24)...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Paul is no longer in the flesh, as he already referenced in verses 5 and 18.
He has separated one from the other.

The purpose of Romans 8 generally seems to be to explain to us what Christ alone achieved for us; that is, it ties it all back to Christ. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "prevails with the new "Spiritual" mind"" -- if it is that a new spiritual mind (of itself) made anything to "prevail", I would have to disagree, as everything that is "new" spiritually, to include the mind, is given by/through Christ.
If you meant Romans 8 teaches that amongst the gifts of Christ, is also a new spiritual mind, I would definitely agree.

We might be saying the same things but I'm just unsure

Rom 8:5-13 are alternating (parts of) verses contrasting a walk in the flesh with a walk in the Spirit.
We can't walk in both.
However, Rom 8 contains much more than just that.

I seem to be having some computer problems, so if that wasn't clear, please ask again.
Sorry.

 

[Hopeful]

Wow!
If your physical body literally died then that’s it, you will go and stand before the Lord to face your judgement.

As Rom 6:23 made clear, death was my judgement.
I thank God, though, for Rom 8:11..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
He quickened, made alive, this body for His own use.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27

Amen!
I am now seated in heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Now, I will live forever.

The fact is, your physical body doesn’t literally die at water baptism.

If you can't believe that, how can you believe anything else relating to rebirth?

Those who are in Christ will be resurrected at His coming.

Amen to that !!!

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

The condition of the "vessel" doesn't constitute death.
Even Paul didn't use the word "dead" in 1 Thes. 4.

 

[JLB]

As Rom 6:23 made clear, death was my judgement.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Brother Romans 6:23 doesn’t mention the Judgement of Christ we will all face.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Amen!
I am now seated in heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Now, I will live forever.

So you believe you will never physically die, that your body will now live forever?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you can't believe that, how can you believe anything else relating to rebirth?

Natural water has nothing to do with spiritual birth.

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Water baptism is about death; our commitment to die to this world, not birth, the new birth.


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:1-3


The new birth is not mentioned here.






JLB

 

[JLB]

but in the middle of Rom 7, he is approaching his audience from the perspective of still being unconverted.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

• For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

Sorry bro, but Paul is sharing his discovery of himself as a Christian, one who delights in the law of God according to the inward man, but sees that there is also another law, the law of sin working is his flesh, warring against the law of his inward man.



Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 4:16



Our inward man is born again, our flesh is not and still contains sin. This is the basic foundational truth one must understand as Christians.


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


The same Paul, writing to the same Church at Rome, to water baptized Christians, that he addressed in the opening verses of Romans 6, he now warns to “not let sin reign in your mortal body”.

• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Can unregenerated people obey this? No of course not.


Paul is writing to water baptized Christians.




JLB

 

[Edward]

So you believe you will never physically die, that your body will now live forever?



JLB

Those who are on their feet when He comes back will never die. :wink

Besides, think about it. If we are seated in Heavenly places right now with the Lord, then, I bet that part of us has been sinless while he's been there?

 

[brightfame52]

Now you spamming the discussion

 

[JLB]

Those who are on their feet when He comes back will never die. :wink

If they are in Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Brother Romans 6:23 doesn’t mention the Judgement of Christ we will all face.

Wages, judgement, both provide a reward...(or anti-reward).