Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

So you believe you will never physically die, that your body will now live forever?

What happens to God's temple (my body) matters not to me.
It is just a suitcase.

 

[Hopeful]

Natural water has nothing to do with spiritual birth.

I'ld like to remind you of 1 John 5:8..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
God can use any one element for multiple purposes.
Think about how many uses the word "seed" is used and in how many contexts.
Water can be Spirit, blood, and/or water.

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Is our rebirth of the "flesh"?
It is of the Spirit, and after our rebirth we walk in the Spirit.

Water baptism is about death; our commitment to die to this world, not birth, the new birth.

You have about half of "what is".
It is our actual death to all things of the world.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:1-3
The new birth is not mentioned here.

Your POV on rebirth makes me think you feel that after rebirth there are two of you walking around.
I feel that the first "me" has died and been buried with Christ..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" (Rom 6:3)
And then, I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)
And then..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:5-7)

One man/woman has to die before another can replace it.
God's Spirit doesn't "quicken" an already alive vessel.
As it is written..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:11)

I believe those words, and have experienced them.
Thanks be to God for freedom !

 

[Hopeful]

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:21-23

Answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul's reminiscence from the past in Rom 7 is shown to be in fact the past by his notation of "the law"'s repeal in Rom 8:2.

• For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

God gets the glory for Paul's freedom from what he felt from the OT by what he has experienced in the NT.

Sorry bro, but Paul is sharing his discovery of himself as a Christian, one who delights in the law of God according to the inward man, but sees that there is also another law, the law of sin working is his flesh, warring against the law of his inward man.

Paul goes from relating his past to how he lives in the present.

Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 4:16

Our vessels will grow older and more feeble every day.
But inside, we shall live forever...if we are walking in the Spirit.

Our inward man is born again, our flesh is not and still contains sin. This is the basic foundational truth one must understand as Christians.

Your misunderstanding is rooted in the belief that the "corruption" of 1 Cor 15 is sin.
It is actually just the aging of the vessel.
Skin and bones don't matter anymore to them who are reborn of God's seed.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
The same Paul, writing to the same Church at Rome, to water baptized Christians, that he addressed in the opening verses of Romans 6, he now warns to “not let sin reign in your mortal body”.

Do you heed his words?
Or do you ignore them and keep letting sin reign?

• Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Can unregenerated people obey this? No of course not.

We agree on this.

Paul is writing to water baptized Christians.

He sure is, and also to all who wish to join with Christ in the conquest of sin.
God sure is glorious !

 

[Hopeful]

Those who are on their feet when He comes back will never die. :wink

Besides, think about it. If we are seated in Heavenly places right now with the Lord, then, I bet that part of us has been sinless while he's been there?

Every part of us is seated with Him, so every part of us is sinless.

Who steers the "car"?
Your vessel is the car, and the man seated with Christ is at the wheel.
Will he ever risk loosing his seat?
No.

 

[brightfame52]

Here's another scripture that indicates faith has an element of action to it. Jesus says in Mk 11:22

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

This is an imperative that requires action

The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.260

People try to dismiss truth by worldly arguments, the wisdom of this world.

Yes Faith here is a noun however an action is required, which is a work

 

[JLB]

Wages, judgement, both provide a reward...(or anti-reward).

Yes.

 

[JLB]

What happens to God's temple (my body) matters not to me.
It is just a suitcase.

It contains sin.

It will die, and be resurrected when the Lord returns.

 

[JLB]

Answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul's reminiscence from the past in Rom 7 is shown to be in fact the past by his notation of "the law"'s repeal in Rom 8:2.

You have to read verse 1 for the context.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

It contains sin.

Show scripture saying that the seed of God can bring forth evil fruit, please.

It will die, and be resurrected when the Lord returns.

It is just a shell, and the resurrected, repentant, will receive a new glorified body.

 

[Hopeful]

You have to read verse 1 for the context.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2.

The context doesn't nullify that the law of sin and death has been overpowered by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
This points out how Paul's reminiscence, in Rom 7:23, is from a perspective from his past.

 

[JLB]

Show scripture saying that the seed of God can bring forth evil fruit, please.

I never said said the seed of God brings forth evil fruit.


I said your physical body was procreated from your mother and father… That which is born of the flesh is flesh


Your spirit is what is born of God… that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Do you believe your physical body is born again?





JLB

 

[JLB]

The context doesn't nullify that the law of sin and death has been overpowered by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

The context shows us that a person must walk according to Spirit, or f they don’t want to be under condemnation.

The Spirit of life in Christ overpowers the law of sin and death to those who obey Jesus Christ, and do not walk according to the sinful desires of the flesh, which Paul calls the law of sin in the members of the body.


I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:21-8:2



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13


If your physical body is sinless, then why does Paul warn us not to live according to the flesh?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I never said said the seed of God brings forth evil fruit.

Then how can you postulate that the reborn's skin and bones has sin in it?

I said your physical body was procreated from your mother and father… That which is born of the flesh is fles
Your spirit is what is born of God… that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which was born of mom and dad is dead and buried, with Christ. (Rom 6:4-5)...
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
That which was born of mom and dad was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Do you believe your physical body is born again?

Absolutely.
How could I be a new creature if some of the old me remained?
As it is written in 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

"All things" includes the vessel.

 

[Hopeful]

The context shows us that a person must walk according to Spirit, or f they don’t want to be under condemnation.
The Spirit of life in Christ overpowers the law of sin and death to those who obey Jesus Christ, and do not walk according to the sinful desires of the flesh, which Paul calls the law of sin in the members of the body.

That is correct.
Those who still walk according to the flesh are not free of what Paul called 'a law of sin'.
And it would also show they had not crucified the flesh, with Christ, at their baptism into His death.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:21-8:2

Rom 7;23 was answered with Rom 8:2.
The law of sin has been defeated by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
It no longer has any power over those who walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

Yep, we can't live in something now dead.

If your physical body is sinless, then why does Paul warn us not to live according to the flesh?

To let folks who are considering committing sin know that if they do, they are not in Christ. They are not walking in the Spirit, and, of course, have not repented of sin.

Can you name a sin that your arm or leg can commit?
How about your hair, can it commit sin?
Your toes?
If they can't commit sin, how can they "contain sin"?

 

[JLB]

Then how can you postulate that the reborn's skin and bones has sin in it?

Our flesh contains sin that has spread to all mankind from Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12


Our physical bodies are not born again, but our spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Do you believe our physical body is born again at the new birth?

That which was born of mom and dad is dead and buried, with Christ. (Rom 6:4-5)...
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
That which was born of mom and dad was destroyed. (Rom 6:6)..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:11-13


As we see, Paul is telling us to “reckon“ ourselves dead to sin in our mortal body, and do not let that sin “reign” or have dominion in your body, that we should obey it.


It’s clear from this and many other passages that Paul is telling us to rule over the sin n our physical body by the power of the Spirit, so that we do not obey it, but rather we should obey the Spirit within us.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Why would the deeds of our body be sinful if our body was sinless?


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Paul says the flesh lusts against the Spirit.

Does that sound like a sinless body?

• For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit; the Spirit is sinless, the flesh is sinful.


If we are not filled with the Spirit, we will be too weak and give in to the sinful cravings of our flesh, and end up doing the very things that we do not wish.

… these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish




JLB

 

[JLB]

And it would also show they had not crucified the flesh, with Christ, at their baptism into His death.

If it was a “one time” thing and done at water baptism, then why the admonition to walk according to the Spirit rather than then flesh.


Water Baptism doesn’t crucify your flesh on a daily basis. That is accomplish by us sowing to the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit and walking by the power of the Spirit daily, because our body still contains sin.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17



Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12





JLB

 

[JLB]

How could I be a new creature if some of the old me remained?
As it is written in 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Is your flesh “in Christ”?

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

See the word Love is a noun strongs g26 however that doesnt negate that its also an action done by someone Gal 5:14. So when men argue over such semantics its like Paul says 1 Tim 6:4

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

So if a person says they are saved by God because of their act of believing, they are promoting salvation by works, which is condemned in scripture. See salvation is by grace alone apart from works.

 

[OzSpen]

Every part of us is seated with Him, so every part of us is sinless.

Who steers the "car"?
Your vessel is the car, and the man seated with Christ is at the wheel.
Will he ever risk loosing his seat?
No.

Hopeful,

How, then, do you answer Rom 8:5-6 (NIV)?

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.​

Can a Christian "live according to the flesh"?

Oz

 

[Hopeful]

Our flesh contains sin that has spread to all mankind from Adam.

I can't blame one's skin and bones for a sin, even before rebirth.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12

The key there is "for all have sinned".
Not "For all have skin and bones".

Our physical bodies are not born again, but our spirit.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
Do you believe our physical body is born again at the new birth?

Then you believe in a half-rebirth.
The entire old man was destroyed when it was crucified with Christ, as Paul writes in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
This verse is also the answer to Paul's lament in Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
(Proving once again that this part of Rom 7 is from Paul's past.)

Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:11-13


As we see, Paul is telling us to “reckon“ ourselves dead to sin in our mortal body, and do not let that sin “reign” or have dominion in your body, that we should obey it.

Why can't you "reckon it" then?

It’s clear from this and many other passages that Paul is telling us to rule over the sin n our physical body by the power of the Spirit, so that we do not obey it, but rather we should obey the Spirit within us.

No, we are to keep from going back to something that is dead now.
Ruling over sin is way different than ruling over "sin in our bodies".

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I read that as "keep the deeds of the body dead".
Your version of the verse has led you astray.
It is written...(KJV)..."For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)
Either/or.
After the flesh, or, keep the flesh dead.

Why would the deeds of our body be sinful if our body was sinless?

If we are sinless the deeds of our bodies are not sinful!

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

Amen to that !
Either/or !
One can't walk in both the Spirit and the flesh.

Paul says the flesh lusts against the Spirit.
Does that sound like a sinless body?

Nope, but it does sound like a "one or the other" again.
The repentant have power over their bodies in Christ.
Sinners do not, as they are not in Christ...(wherein is no sin).

• For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit; the Spirit is sinless, the flesh is sinful.

Why do you keep presenting this from the sinful man following the flesh perspective instead of presenting it from the man in the Spirit's perspective?

If we are not filled with the Spirit, we will be too weak and give in to the sinful cravings of our flesh, and end up doing the very things that we do not wish.

… these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

They are so contrary that one can only do one or the other.
Which will you do?

BTW, I was reading Mark 2 this morning and was again reminded of the new body after rebirth...
It is written..."No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles." (Mark 2:21-22)
You are postulating we put new wine (Spirit) into old bottles (bodies).
I can't agree.