Is believing/faith a work ?

[JLB]

If it is only symbolic, then I guess our rebirth, death of the old man, and remission of sins

If that is the case, both still have a perfectly sinless ending!
You seem to view water baptism as symbolic, but drop it there at the act.
Why not the outcome too?

Water Baptism is symbolic of the literal.


Our physical body doesn’t literally die at water baptism, nor is it literally resurrected from the dead.


Sorry to break the news to you. I know you were taught otherwise.


Paul is wanting to renew their mind with the truth of walking according to the Spirit, rather than allowing the sin in our bodies to reign in dominion over us.


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13


I know you can read and understand that Paul is teaching water baptized Christians not to let the sin in their mortal body reign over them so that THEY ARE OBEYING IT’S LUSTFUL DESIRES.


Chapter 7 is all about Paul explaining how he himself had to come to the conclusion of this very thing, so they would understand how to go about living from the power of the Spirit within them.


Paul plainly teaches us we all have the same fight, to overcome the sinful cravings of our flesh in this life, and that it is the Spirit who works with us to empower us to overcome these sinful desires of the flesh.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Our physical body is certainly not sinless because we are water baptized.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul is teaching Spirit filled, water baptized, born again Christians that they must walk according to the Spirit, SO THAT they will not fulfill the lustful cravings and desires of the flesh; the physical body.



If you believe born again, water baptized Christians are perfectly sinless in their physical body because they literally died and were literally resurrected from the dead with new sinless bodies when they were baptized in water, then that is on you.


I have given you the scriptures that prove otherwise.


If you chose to continue to ignore these clear scriptural truths, then I can assure you, you will be in for a huge shock on the Day of Judgement.






JLB

 

[Edward]

Is the act of Faith a Work ? Yes it is, and here's some reasons why

I get what you're saying, but I don't get your premise?

What follows faith is a work? Should we not have faith then? Should we not do works then? I'm guessing though, what is your premise?

 

[Edward]

No sir.

The going down into death and rising up again, of water baptism are symbolic of the resurrection to come, when He returns on the last Day.

I'm beginning to think that there's types & shadows in just about everything.

 

[Hopeful]

Water Baptism is symbolic of the literal.

Only to some.

Our physical body doesn’t literally die at water baptism, nor is it literally resurrected from the dead.

Then the bible lied.

Sorry to break the news to you. I know you were taught otherwise.

I present that which I was taught or learned of God.

Paul is wanting to renew their mind with the truth of walking according to the Spirit, rather than allowing the sin in our bodies to reign in dominion over us.

There is no sin is a reborn body.
Why?
Because it is reborn of God's seed.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13
I know you can read and understand that Paul is teaching water baptized Christians not to let the sin in their mortal body reign over them so that THEY ARE OBEYING IT’S LUSTFUL DESIRES.

No, he is teaching us not to let sin get a foothold in our new bodies.
If it gets in, it reigns.
Jesus promised us freedom from sin in John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
He was right, thanks be to God.

Chapter 7 is all about Paul explaining how he himself had to come to the conclusion of this very thing, so they would understand how to go about living from the power of the Spirit within them.

That is correct...while one is under the Law.

Paul plainly teaches us we all have the same fight, to overcome the sinful cravings of our flesh in this life, and that it is the Spirit who works with us to empower us to overcome these sinful desires of the flesh.

You are mistaken.
He did, however, teach us that the flesh was crucified, with the vile affections and lusts...if you are Christ's..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Our physical body is certainly not sinless because we are water baptized.

It seems, according to your translation of Rom 8:12-13, that we CAN put them to death.
How do suppose that can happen?
The KJV of the bible says to "keep the deeds of the body dead". (My paraphrase)
And I know how that happens.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

• Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul is teaching Spirit filled, water baptized, born again Christians that they must walk according to the Spirit, SO THAT they will not fulfill the lustful cravings and desires of the flesh; the physical body.

As you don't believe we can live without sin, I feel you don't believe Paul's words can be accomplished.
Is that correct?

If you believe born again, water baptized Christians are perfectly sinless in their physical body because they literally died and were literally resurrected from the dead with new sinless bodies when they were baptized in water, then that is on you.

Me and God Almighty who commanded it by the mouth of Jesus Christ.
It is written..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

I have given you the scriptures that prove otherwise.
If you chose to continue to ignore these clear scriptural truths, then I can assure you, you will be in for a huge shock on the Day of Judgement.

I will continue to resist your efforts to weaken my faith in what is really written.
I don't want to start to commit sin again, and more sinning is the end result of your doctrine.

 

[Hopeful]

Our physical body doesn’t literally die at water baptism, nor is it literally resurrected from the dead.

Then the bible lied.
It is written..."For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)

 

[JLB]

Then the bible lied.
It is written..."For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)

I have had enough of your “the Bible lied”.

Im sorry you were taught that we literally die at water baptism.

Im sorry you were taught that we now have a sinless body.

You we’re lied to. The Bible is the truth.

I have given you more than enough scriptures, which you just seem to ignore.



Thanks for your time,



God bless you.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I have had enough of your “the Bible lied”.

Im sorry you were taught that we literally die at water baptism.

Im sorry you were taught that we now have a sinless body.

You we’re lied to. The Bible is the truth.

I have given you more than enough scriptures, which you just seem to ignore.
Thanks for your time,
God bless you.

It is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

 

[Edward]

Then the bible lied.
It is written..."For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)

No Brother, I was not reborn in the flesh when I was born again. Neither did I die in the flesh. Oh I may have a new heart, a new spirit, but that part of me is what is hid with Christ now. If you read the scripture you posted...if you keep reading it shines more light on the topic.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 And when Christ, who is your[a] life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory.../

When Christ is revealed to the whole world (every eye will see Him), then we'll be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and share in His glory. And get new body's.

He tells us, look to the inside. Look to the unseen. That's where we are now. I was reborn spiritually on the inside, and continue to grow. But my flesh body hasn't died yet, here I am typing! I reckon myself to be dead in the flesh with a spiritual connotation means I do not live for the flesh and of the world, for I have been made new spiritually in Christ.

Like that.

 

[JLB]

It is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Romans 6:12


Our physical bodies are not sinless.



JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no sin is a reborn body.
Why?
Because it is reborn of God's seed.

God didn’t give birth to your flesh.

That’s just nonsense.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

I get what you're saying, but I don't get your premise?

What follows faith is a work? Should we not have faith then? Should we not do works then? I'm guessing though, what is your premise?

If you condition salvation on your faith, then thats works salvation.

 

[JLB]

If you condition salvation on your faith, then thats works salvation.

Faith is a gift from God as is grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:-9




So explain how faith is works salvation?




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is a gift from God as is grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:-9




So explain how faith is works salvation?




JLB

I have explained. If you condition faith as something you must do for God to save you, you advocate salvation by works.

 

[rogerg]

I have explained. If you condition faith as something you must do for God to save you, you advocate salvation by works.

Maybe I'm missing it but it sounds to me like you and JLB might be saying the same thing - if I missed it - sorry

 

[JLB]

It is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4


The truth is the death that Paul is teaching us is the death of Christ, not our “literal” death.

• Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

The death that is spoken of here is His death, not our death.

• Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It’s His death and His resurrection that are being portrayed and is the context of the Romans 6 baptism.

Your theology lifts the narrative of of its biblical context and contorts it into a doctrine that teaches we literally died, and our physical bodies were literally resurrected and are now completely sinless.


So it’s easy to see that Paul is teaching “symbolically” in the next verse to renew our minds to what God has called us to do, which is live our lives by the power of the Spirit; the new life we have in Christ.


For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Romans 6:5


The resurrection of the dead in Christ is something we are looking forward to, and will occur at His coming.



Again, we do not literally die during water baptism, nor are we literally resurrected from the dead with a sinless body, as Paul plainly exhorts in verse 12…


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12





JLB

 

[JLB]

I have explained. If you condition faith as something you must do for God to save you, you advocate salvation by works.

Faith is clearly a condition for a person to experience salvation.


Here is the is the process —


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17



We are saved by believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.





JLB

 

[rogerg]

I have explained. If you condition faith as something you must do for God to save you, you advocate salvation by works.

Oops, just saw JLB's last reply - sorry I was wrong.

 

[Edward]

If you condition salvation on your faith, then thats works salvation.

That's the part I get already. But what follows that?

Where are you going with your premise?

 

[Edward]

If you condition salvation on your faith, then thats works salvation.

So is it by grace through faith or not?

 

[OzSpen]

Faith is a gift from God as is grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:-9




So explain how faith is works salvation?




JLB

JLB,

To the contrary: Eph 2:8-9 (Got Questions).

Dr Michael L Williams commentary on Eph 2:8-9 deals accurately with the Greek grammar:

The third and final problem with claiming that the gift of God is faith is that in the Greek language, like other languages, words can have masculine, feminine, or neuter genders. The word faith is feminine in gender. The subject of the first phrase is also referred to by the next phrase, “and that not of yourselves” (Ephesians 2:8). In this next phrase, “that” is referring to what is being described. Since we have determined that the subject is salvation, the word “that” cannot be talking about faith. Likewise, the gender of the word “that” is neuter, not feminine, so it cannot be talking about faith, which has a feminine gender. Additionally, the gender of the word “it” is also neuter so neither “that” or “it” can refer to faith.

Grammatically, "that" cannot refer back to "faith" because of the genders of the words.

Oz