Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work. If a person could believe in Christ before they are born again by the Spirit, it would mean they have done a work and that would mean they have worked for their salvation which is totally against what the scriptures teach. Ephesians 2:8-9 22

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[rogerg]

The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work. If a person could believe in Christ before they are born again by the Spirit, it would mean they have done a work and that would mean they have worked for their salvation which is totally against what the scriptures teach. Ephesians 2:8-9 22

Absolutely, brightfame52 - IMHO, well done. Christ alone is the Saviour. As Savior, His faith (Christ's faithfulness and obedience to the Father's will) brings forth salvation; from that is our faith given us by God as a gift. As a gift, it is not earned nor is it of (our) doing.
So, in a sense, there are two faiths: 1) Christ's faith to the Father which is the faith that saves us; and, 2) the faith that God imparts within those He saves, which is from being saved. Many people do not understand the distinction between the two, and thereby confuse the respective attributes of each, perceiving them as being of one.

[Jhn
6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[1Pe 1:21, 23 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. ...
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

To the contrary: Eph 2:8-9 (Got Questions).

Dr Michael L Williams commentary on Eph 2:8-9 deals accurately with the Greek grammar:



Grammatically, "that" cannot refer back to "faith" because of the genders of the words.

Oz

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Does Faith come from God?

Is faith a gift from God or do we earn it?




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

The word “believe” in the Greek text is “pisteuo” which is a verb denoting a work.

brightfame52,

From where did you gain that meaning? Out of the mind of bf??

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon gives the meanings as:

(a) "Believe in something, be convinced of something";
(b) With hoti, "believe that";
(c) "Believe concerning someone that";
(d) "I believe that he was in the flesh";
(e) By means of the dative case, of the thing "give credence to, believe";
(f) "Christianity did not believe in Judaism"; etc (BAG 1957:665-666).

I do wish you would get the facts of the etymology of the verb pisteuō from a Greek grammar or lexicon. Your exegesis is so far from the truth of the meaning of pisteuō.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Does Faith come from God?

Is faith a gift from God or do we earn it?




JLB

JLB,

You are not answering the exegesis I presented to you. What is the antecedent of "that" and what is its gender, number and case? Greek nouns, pronouns and relative pronouns agree with their antecedents in gender, number, and case.

"That" is neuter and CANNOT refer back to the feminine charis (grace) or the feminine pistis (faith).

It's time you learned your Greek grammar so you can accurately exegete Eph 2:8-9. Expert Greek grammarian of the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, provided this exegesis of Eph 2:8-9:

​

Verse 8​

For by grace (τη γαρ χαριτ). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Ephesians 2:5 and so with the article.​

Through faith (δια πιστεως). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Ephesians 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.​

And that (κα τουτο). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη, and so refers not to πιστις (feminine) or to χαρις (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εξ υμων, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (δωρον) and not the result of our work.​

Verse 9​

That no man should glory (ινα μη τις καυχησητα). Negative final clause (ινα μη) with first aorist middle subjunctive of καυχαομα. It is all of God's grace.​

​

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

You are not answering the exegesis I presented to you. What is the antecedent of "that" and what is its gender, number and case? Greek nouns, pronouns and relative pronouns agree with their antecedents in gender, number, and case.

"That" is neuter and CANNOT refer back to the feminine charis (grace) or the feminine pistis (faith).

It's time you learned your Greek grammar so you can accurately exegete Eph 2:8-9. Expert Greek grammarian of the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, provided this exegesis of Eph 2:8-9:

​

Verse 8​

For by grace (τη γαρ χαριτ). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Ephesians 2:5 and so with the article.​

Through faith (δια πιστεως). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Ephesians 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.​

And that (κα τουτο). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη, and so refers not to πιστις (feminine) or to χαρις (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εξ υμων, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (δωρον) and not the result of our work.​

Verse 9​

That no man should glory (ινα μη τις καυχησητα). Negative final clause (ινα μη) with first aorist middle subjunctive of καυχαομα. It is all of God's grace.​

​

Oz

Come on bro,

You quoted someone's commentary.


Please just answer the simple commonsense straightforward questions.

I want to hear what you yourself believe, not what someone's commentary teaches.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Does Faith come from God?

Is faith a gift from God or do we earn it?




JLB

 

[rogerg]

Through faith (δια πιστεως). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Ephesians 2:5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours.

I enjoy learning the actual Greek behind the English translations in which I'm a total beginner at, so I'm curious, where in the Greek, or how did you specifically arrive at the "faith ours" part if you don't mind restating that point? I probably missed it, but I don't see how you came to that interpretation from it, but would like to know. Thanks

 

[OzSpen]

Come on bro,

You quoted someone's commentary.


Please just answer the simple commonsense straightforward questions.

I want to hear what you yourself believe, not what someone's commentary teaches.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8


Does Faith come from God?

Is faith a gift from God or do we earn it?




JLB

I answered with an exegetical answer. If you don't believe me, please provide an exegetical answer to refute my answer.

Bye,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I enjoy learning the actual Greek behind the English translations in which I'm a total beginner at, so I'm curious, where in the Greek, or how did you specifically arrive at the "faith ours" part if you don't mind restating that point? I probably missed it, but I don't see how you came to that interpretation from it, but would like to know. Thanks

"It" cannot refer to "grace" or "faith" as "it" is neuter gender and "grace" and "faith" are feminine gender. The nouns must agree with antecedents in gender, number and case.

Oz

 

[rogerg]

"It" cannot refer to "grace" or "faith" as "it" is neuter gender and "grace" and "faith" are feminine gender. The nouns must agree with antecedents in gender, number and case.

Thanks for your reply and I think I follow your explanation regarding neuter gender (and I'm trying not to be too dense here,) but are you saying that somehow in the Greek the "it" led you to the conclusion that acquiring faith is up to us to achieve since you had said that "faith ours"? Appreciate your patience

 

[Hopeful]

No Brother, I was not reborn in the flesh when I was born again. Neither did I die in the flesh. Oh I may have a new heart, a new spirit, but that part of me is what is hid with Christ now. If you read the scripture you posted...if you keep reading it shines more light on the topic.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 And when Christ, who is your[a] life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory.../

When Christ is revealed to the whole world (every eye will see Him), then we'll be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and share in His glory. And get new body's.

He tells us, look to the inside. Look to the unseen. That's where we are now. I was reborn spiritually on the inside, and continue to grow. But my flesh body hasn't died yet, here I am typing! I reckon myself to be dead in the flesh with a spiritual connotation means I do not live for the flesh and of the world, for I have been made new spiritually in Christ.

Like that.

You reckon yourself dead, without having died?
That means you have yet to suffer "the wages of sin", from Rom 6:23.

You also have yet to be..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" from Col 2:11.
You have yet to be..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." from Col 2:12.
And you have yet to..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Being partially reborn, (just your spirit), denies you the ability to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh...which was never killed with Christ if it is still alive.

It is written..."If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:1-3)
How can one be "risen with Christ" if they were not really dead and buried with Him?

 

[Hopeful]

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Romans 6:12
Our physical bodies are not sinless.

They can be.

 

[Hopeful]

God didn’t give birth to your flesh.
That’s just nonsense.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

As nothing is impossible for God to accomplish, I take great comfort in 1 John 3:2-3... 2"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
If He is pure, we can be too.
Thanks be to God.

 

[Hopeful]

If you condition salvation on your faith, then thats works salvation.

And thank God for the grace to do so !
And thank God it isn't the works of the Law, that Paul wrote against.

 

[JLB]

They can be.

Our physical bodies become sinless after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, in which our mortal bodies are sown in corruption but are raised in incorruption, when Christ returns.


It certainly doesn’t happen at water baptism.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4

The truth is the death that Paul is teaching us is the death of Christ, not our “literal” death.

Anything I say here may be considered an attack on the false doctrine of continued sin after conversion...so I will refrain from comment unless you are interested.

• Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

The death that is spoken of here is His death, not our death.

• Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It’s His death and His resurrection that are being portrayed and is the context of the Romans 6 baptism.
Your theology lifts the narrative of of its biblical context and contorts it into a doctrine that teaches we literally died, and our physical bodies were literally resurrected and are now completely sinless.
So it’s easy to see that Paul is teaching “symbolically” in the next verse to renew our minds to what God has called us to do, which is live our lives by the power of the Spirit; the new life we have in Christ.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Romans 6:5
The resurrection of the dead in Christ is something we are looking forward to, and will occur at His coming
Again, we do not literally die during water baptism, nor are we literally resurrected from the dead with a sinless body, as Paul plainly exhorts in verse 12…
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12.

It is written..."No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:16-17)

 

[JLB]

As nothing is impossible for God to accomplish, I take great comfort in 1 John 3:2-3... 2"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
If He is pure, we can be too.
Thanks be to God.

God does not give birth to our flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


We are reborn spiritually not physically. Surely you understand that, right?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

"It" cannot refer to "grace" or "faith" as "it" is neuter gender and "grace" and "faith" are feminine gender. The nouns must agree with antecedents in gender, number and case.

Oz

Agreed.
The gift is His graceful kindness and deliverance, not our faith.

 

[JLB]

Anything I say here may be considered an attack on the false doctrine of continued sin after conversion...so I will refrain from comment unless you are interested.

Did you bother to read what I wrote?


The death and resurrection mentioned in Romans 6, contextually refers to Christ, not us. We do not die and are resurrected from the dead at water baptism.


Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4


Paul is teaching us is the death of Christ, not our “literal” death.

• Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

The death that is spoken of here is His death, not our death.

• Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Our physical bodies become sinless after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, in which our mortal bodies are sown in corruption but are raised in incorruption, when Christ returns.
It certainly doesn’t happen at water baptism.

All my sin was remitted at my death and burial; and I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I am not the vessel that ages and fades way.
That is the consecrated, sanctified temple of the Holy Ghost.