Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

Amen to being an enemy to Grace ??

Amen to "conditioning my salvation to my works".
Without having been allowed to turn from sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and everything else God gave us in order to endure till the end, there would be no salvation.
The "works" you keep referring to are the "works of the Law.
It is written..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)
The "works" I refer to are the acts of faith, love, and obedience.
Without which there is no salvation.

Your mistaken belief concerning "acting" actually makes it anti-salvation to obey God.
Do you really feel that concept is from God?

 

[Hopeful]

Okay, if you don't mind that I ask, isn't Christ the Saviour? If He is, how then does
that relate to your post above?

Christ is indeed the Savior.
Turning from sin shows our love for Him...and His Father and all our neighbors.
Is He not due that love?
Our baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection shows we are done with walking after the flesh, and can walk, henceforth, after the Spirit. (Rom 6:3-6, Rom 8:8-11)
The next verse of Rom 6 provides the results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Does your salvation "without works" provide you with freedom from sin?
If not, what exactly were you saved from?

 

[Hopeful]

Believing or Faith is contrasted with works Salvation because one must be saved already in order to believe in Christ. So when you see verses like Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:11

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

1 Cor 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Gal 3:22

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Pet 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Believing is evidence of being in a saved state, not a condition to get into a saved state. When this truth is adhered to, its then believing is in contrast to works salvation or justification23

Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement and you hear your name is still in the book of life.
Will your not "doing" anything provide that?

 

[Edward]

It is written..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:11)
What is quickened (made alive) ?
Your body.
Why?
Because it was dead.

You reckon yourself dead, without having died?
That means you have yet to suffer "the wages of sin", from Rom 6:23.

Yes, that's correct. The wages of my sin have been paid for by Jesus. My flesh body has not died yet but after my spiritual rebirth, I am still trapped in this flesh body on house arrest until the end of this class. Then I'll be transformed and get new spiritual body. It's like, my body is a rusty Nova for now and later I am promised a Lincoln Continental. But in the meantime until that happens I am tasked to obey and be an overcomer.

Overcomer of what? Of the greatest spiritual onslaught ever to be overcome by God. Between evil spirits and all of God's Angels, the unseen portion of our world has to be saturated with spiritual beings. The amount of demonic spiritual oppression that we're under here has yet to be seen and will likely be astonishing. So yeah, there's lots to overcome.

Faith is a choice about the character of our God. Those who seek not to do anything by trying to loophole them into works need to read 1 Corinthians 13 as that explains it well.

So I am not sinless yet, and yet I am sinless in that God does not reckon our stumbling to us as sin. Because (1 Corinthians 13!) when I do fall and skin my knee, I get back up and say sorry Daddy, I'll be careful next time. And His Love covers a multitude of sins. Far fetched? Just ask King David, a man after God's own heart.

Look, we're all children here. And even we know that, we don't get the baby in trouble for pooping his pants. God wouldn't either. (1 Corinthians 13)

And we're all charged with not quitting the race set before us. To keep trying and learning. As they say, we are to be, doers and not just hearers of the word.

 

[rogerg]

Christ is indeed the Savior.
Turning from sin shows our love for Him...and His Father and all our neighbors.
Is He not due that love?
Our baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection shows we are done with walking after the flesh, and can walk, henceforth, after the Spirit. (Rom 6:3-6, Rom 8:8-11)
The next verse of Rom 6 provides the results..."For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Does your salvation "without works" provide you with freedom from sin?
If not, what exactly were you saved from?

I guess I was asking what you consider Christ's role to be in salvation? I may have missed it, but I didn't see that specifically addressed in your reply.
The other points you raised seem kind of subjective to me. Is there a standard you apply to measure such things or do you just know when you've achieved them, for example, when we are "done waking after the flesh"? I'm talking actual and measurable standards, not categories of things - or else, how would you know when achieved?

As far as what exactly were we saved from, and how do we have freedom from sin? I would have to say that by Christ we were saved from law, because law convicts, for without law there can be no sin, and no sin, no judgement.

[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

It must not have been a true crucifixion if you have to keep repeating the act daily.

"Follow me" where?
To Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection...just as Rom 6:3-7 says.
Accomplished at our "immersion" into Christ at water baptism.
"Once dead, always dead" is how we should view our crucifixion of the flesh, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Of course without a true repentance from sin, any baptism is just a bath.

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23


When we are led by His Spirit, we are following His lifestyle.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Our daily lifestyle is one of daily putting to death, crucifying the sinful desires and deeds of the flesh.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

A persons believing is a gracious gift God gives, its a preternatural operation enacted by God on spiritually dead people. Its given to a person to believe on Christ Phil 1:29 since its something mn cannot naturally do.

​

 

[brightfame52]

Amen to "conditioning my salvation to my works".
Without having been allowed to turn from sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and everything else God gave us in order to endure till the end, there would be no salvation.
The "works" you keep referring to are the "works of the Law.
It is written..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)
The "works" I refer to are the acts of faith, love, and obedience.
Without which there is no salvation.

Your mistaken belief concerning "acting" actually makes it anti-salvation to obey God.
Do you really feel that concept is from God?

Yes amen to you conditioning salvation to your works, which is contrary to salvation by Grace. At least you are honest about your opposition to Grace.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, that's correct. The wages of my sin have been paid for by Jesus. My flesh body has not died yet but after my spiritual rebirth,

Don't you believe Rom 6:3-7?
That is where my flesh body was killed and buried, only to be raised with Christ to walk in my new life.

I am still trapped in this flesh body on house arrest until the end of this class. Then I'll be transformed and get new spiritual body. It's like, my body is a rusty Nova for now and later I am promised a Lincoln Continental. But in the meantime until that happens I am tasked to obey and be an overcomer.

My vessel too is a Pinto, but my mind, that which controls it, drives it better than A J Foyt.
It isn't the vessel we will be judged for, but the driving mind behind the wheel.

Overcomer of what? Of the greatest spiritual onslaught ever to be overcome by God. Between evil spirits and all of God's Angels, the unseen portion of our world has to be saturated with spiritual beings. The amount of demonic spiritual oppression that we're under here has yet to be seen and will likely be astonishing. So yeah, there's lots to overcome.

Overcome every temptation brought against you.

Faith is a choice about the character of our God.

Care to elaborate?

Those who seek not to do anything by trying to loophole them into works need to read 1 Corinthians 13 as that explains it well.

Agreed.
Any accommodation for sin is not of God.

So I am not sinless yet, and yet I am sinless in that God does not reckon our stumbling to us as sin.

You will need to establish that concept with written truth.

Because (1 Corinthians 13!) when I do fall and skin my knee, I get back up and say sorry Daddy, I'll be careful next time. And His Love covers a multitude of sins. Far fetched? Just ask King David, a man after God's own heart.

Next time?
Why?
There will continue to be "next times" till you hit the wood box unless you quit sinning now!

Look, we're all children here. And even we know that, we don't get the baby in trouble for pooping his pants. God wouldn't either. (1 Corinthians 13)

Children of whom?
God, or the devil? (1 John 3:9-10)

And we're all charged with not quitting the race set before us. To keep trying and learning. As they say, we are to be, doers and not just hearers of the word.

You better be sure you are in the race, first.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes amen to you conditioning salvation to your works, which is contrary to salvation by Grace. At least you are honest about your opposition to Grace.

I am against any doctrine that accommodates sin.

 

[rogerg]

I am against any doctrine that accommodates sin.

What is it that makes sin, sin?

 

[Edward]

What is it that makes sin, sin?

That would be in Romans 14:22-23

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.../

So whatever is not done in faith is sin.

 

[Hopeful]

I guess I was asking what you consider Christ's role to be in salvation?

He is the author and finisher of my faith. (Heb 12:2)

I may have missed it, but I didn't see that specifically addressed in your reply.
The other points you raised seem kind of subjective to me. Is there a standard you apply to measure such things or do you just know when you've achieved them, for example, when we are "done waking after the flesh"? I'm talking actual and measurable standards, not categories of things - or else, how would you know when achieved?

The best indicator of having ended a walk in the flesh, is a life without sin.
I don't know if there is any other way to tell.

As far as what exactly were we saved from, and how do we have freedom from sin? I would have to say that by Christ we were saved from law, because law convicts, for without law there can be no sin, and no sin, no judgement.

[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

We are indeed saved form sin by the end of the Law's reign, but also by the gifts of repentance from sin.
If one turns from sin, it makes them a non-sinner.
If they continue to commit sin, they have not repented.
And by the gift of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Inherent in baptism is also the death of the flesh/old man.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
(Rom 6:4-7)

 

[Hopeful]

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Luke 9:23

Please remember that Jesus was talking to OT folks without the gifts of repentance or baptism in His name for remission of past sins; and a way to kill the old man so a new man could be reborn from His Father's seed.
If we are following Him with our cross, we are crucified on it as He was.

When we are led by His Spirit, we are following His lifestyle.

That's for sure.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Our daily lifestyle is one of daily putting to death, crucifying the sinful desires and deeds of the flesh.

I thank God that instead of killing the old man every day, I was allowed to kill it once, and keep it dead every day.

 

[Hopeful]

A persons believing is a gracious gift God gives, its a preternatural operation enacted by God on spiritually dead people. Its given to a person to believe on Christ Phil 1:29 since its something man cannot naturally do.

I can't believe in a God who will only offer belief to a select few.
Your POV makes it God's fault that 99% of humanity will perish.
It is in our power to believe or not.

 

[Hopeful]

What is it that makes sin, sin?

I use John's definition form 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."

 

[JLB]

Please remember that Jesus was talking to OT folks without the gifts of repentance or baptism in His name for remission of past sins; and a way to kill the old man so a new man could be reborn from His Father's seed.
If we are following Him with our cross, we are crucified on it as He was.

Jesus taught the Church Leadership, His apostles to teach His doctrine to their disciples.


And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20


Paul and the other apostles taught the doctrine of Christ.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

The only time believing isnt a work is when its understood that the Faith in which a believer believes did not originate from within him or her self, but it was granted to them by Sovereign Grace, otherwise believing faith defaults to a work of man naturally from within himself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anything not of a gift, is a work

Uh.
Have you read Ephesians 2:8..
??

It states that faith, grace, and salvation are GIFTS.

Paul states that if it is by grace, it cannot be by works.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Do you trust your teachers more than Paul???

 

[GodsGrace]

The only time believing isnt a work is when its understood that the Faith in which a believer believes did not originate from within him or her self, but it was granted to them by Sovereign Grace, otherwise believing faith defaults to a work of man naturally from within himself.

I think you've caught the error of your belief system and are trying to make sense of it.

Now go with it,,,wherever it may lead.