Is believing/faith a work ?

[journeymanisnothing]

non sequitur


non sequitur

You left out verse 11:

[Mat 13:10-11 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

[Mat 13:13-16 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

I didn't leave vs.11 out. Vs.11 is understood by understanding the types of soil described in the parable is describing people, including me. When I follow our Lords' instruction myself, I won't be hard hearted, or be afraid of persecution, or let worldly wealth choke the word out of me. As he says,

“Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. Jer.4:3

He does't mean, "Don't tells people who love worldly wealth about me." He means, "Get the thorns out of your land (meaning out of yourself.)

The problem my sincere friend, is that you think our King was talking not abot 'me", but about "those people over there."

 

[rogerg]

The problem my sincere friend, is that you think our King was talking not abot 'me", but about "those people over there."

[Mat 13:11 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The verse is talking about ALL those who have been GIVEN understanding and ALL those who
won't be given understanding. Those who have, have, because it was expressly given to them as a gift from/by God.

another non sequitur on your part.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

[Mat 13:11 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The verse is talking about ALL those who have been GIVEN understanding and ALL those who
won't be given understanding. Those who have, have, because it was expressly given to them as a gift from/by God.

another non sequitur on your part.

Why does Jer.4:3 agree with my view, but disagree with your view? Here's another one,

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. Mk.10:28

This is why,

it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt.13:11

 

[rogerg]

Why does Jer.4:3 agree with my view, but disagree with your view? Here's another one,

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. Mk.10:28

This is why,

it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Mt.13:11

It agrees? Really? No... it doesn't. It is talking about God's sovereign intervention, preeminence, prerogative, and good pleasure regarding who is chosen and follows. Peter, and all others who follow Christ, do so because, and only because, they have been chosen by Him for that.
Did you see "GIVEN" in the verse?
The intent of the verse is so clear that it is amazing to me you would even choose to debate it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It's the same thing with,

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal.5:22-23

Paul doesn't mean, "The fruit of Holy Spirit will be manifest in you for no reason, or even if you don't want it to", because he goes on to say,

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.5:24

Paul came to understand how our Lord was crucified, when he began preaching Jesus, because people wanted him dead,

the Jews took counsel together to kill him Act.9:23

First, let me say this verse doesn't mean all Jews hated the gospel. (I know you know this, but in case any new Jewish members are here, the NT isn't anti-semetic.)
Paul truly came to understand our sweet Saviors' love towars people who hated him, when Paul was hated himself. He desired to know the love of Jesys,

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, Phl.3:10

 

[rogerg]

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal.5:22-23

Paul doesn't mean, "The fruit of Holy Spirit will be manifest in you for no reason, or even if you don't want it to", because he goes on to say,

Yes, it means the Holy Spirit is manifested unto someone solely because God wanted it to be and for no other reason.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal.5:24

Crucifying the flesh means to cease from works for salvation and instead of having faith in Christ. This too is a gift of God.

Paul came to understand how our Lord was crucified, when he began preaching Jesus, because people wanted him dead,

No Saul/Paul gained understanding on the road to Damacus when Christ opened his eyes.

Paul truly came to understand our sweet Saviors' love towars people who hated him, when Paul was hated himself. He desired to know the love of Jesys,

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, Phl.3:10

In the spiritual sense, God only loves those who have been, or who will be, justified by Christ, and only because
they have been justified by Christ. He loves no others.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It agrees? Really? No... it doesn't. It is talking about God's sovereign intervention, preeminence, prerogative, and good pleasure regarding who is chosen and follows. Peter, and all others who follow Christ, do so because, and only because, they have been chosen by Him for that.
Did you see "GIVEN" in the verse?
The intent of the verse is so clear that it is amazing to me you would even choose to debate it.

You see, you wo't interpret Jer.4:3. You simply keep repeating the same passage, whether it makes sense to a related passage. If what you said was true these would make no sense,

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will fall in the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.” Isa.65:12

It's insane to think the Son and Father couldn't be understood at all.

 

[rogerg]

It's insane to think the Son and Father couldn't be understood at all.

Yes, of ourselves, we cannot understand. Should anyone not realize that Christ is fully the Saviour in all ways with nothing left to be done for it, then they simply do not understand the Father, Son, nor the gospel. Read these verses closely:

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes, it means the Holy Spirit is manifested unto someone solely because God wanted it to be and for no other reason.

The Holy Spirit was manifested to the entire world, in the Person of the Messiah.

Crucifying the flesh means to cease from works for salvation and instead of having faith in Christ. This too is a gift of God.

Crucifying the flesh means striving against sin,

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

The blood he's talking about is their own blood, as our Masters' blood was shed, striving against the sins being committed against him.
It's paramount to keep in mind that our Lord didn't do this for himself, as he had no sin. Like the Aaronic priesthood you mentioned having to offer for "themselves" and the people, Jesus offered himself.......offered to show mankind the exact love his Father has for everyone who doesn't love him... which included me at one time.

No Saul/Paul gained understanding on the road to Damacus when Christ opened his eyes.

Christ only opens the eyes of people who want their eyes opened. That's why,

when his eyes were opened he saw no one Act.9:8

And so after he fasted (and no doubt prayed) for three day because he was blind, then his eyes were opened (Act.9:18.)

In the spiritual sense, God only loves those who have been, or who will be, justified by Christ, and only because
they have been justified by Christ. He loves no others.

well, those "who will be" better repent with the time Jesus allows them,

I gave her space to repent Rev.2:11

Can you understand how giving someone time to repent, means within that timeframe, someone has the capability to repent? Otherwise, it's pointless.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes, of ourselves, we cannot understand. Should anyone not realize that Christ is fully the Saviour in all ways with nothing left to be done for it, then they simply do not understand the Father, Son, nor the gospel. Read these verses closely:

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

You cited this scripture before and I directed it to how Jesus said to let our lights shine, so the gospel would shine to unbelievers. And when I mentioned this back in this thread, you ignored it. Jesus' instruction to his disciples only makes sense the way I'm interpreting it.
You're position is, it doesn't matter if believers let their light shine.
In fact the way you're interpreting scripture, what does it matter if Christ came into this world at all?

 

[rogerg]

The Holy Spirit was manifested to the entire world, in the Person of the Messiah.

Crucifying the flesh means striving against sin,

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

The blood he's talking about is their own blood, as our Masters' blood was shed, striving against the sins being committed against him.
It's paramount to keep in mind that our Lord didn't do this for himself, as he had no sin. Like the Aaronic priesthood you mentioned having to offer for "themselves" and the people, Jesus offered himself.......offered to show mankind the exact love his Father has for everyone who doesn't love him... which included me at one time.

Christ only opens the eyes of people who want their eyes opened. That's why,

when his eyes were opened he saw no one Act.9:8

And so after he fasted (and no doubt prayed) for three day because he was blind, then his eyes were opened (Act.9:18.)

well, those "who will be" better repent with the time Jesus allows them,

I gave her space to repent Rev.2:11

Can you understand how giving someone time to repent, means within that timeframe, someone has the capability to repent? Otherwise, it's pointless.

I'll just say this: just as Christ opened Saul's spiritual eyes on the road to Damascus, so too was Paul instructed by Christ to open the eyes of others (the elect) with the same gift as was given to him. Do you see that the same opening of the eyes occurred in both cases and is spiritual?

[Act 26:14-18 KJV]

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The opening of Paul's eyes was spiritual, and thereby did he know Christ as God, Lord and Saviour. Christ had APPEARED to Saul even though he was physically blind. He regained physical sight later. To have "appeared", and for Saul to have responded as he did, means that he received and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit then, not later.
Paul became saved at Jesus's appearing to him.

You believe salvation is only of works, I believe it is only of grace through/by Christ. The gulf between the two is too big to bridge. Therefore, I'm done with this discussion.

 

[rogerg]

You cited this scripture before and I directed it to how Jesus said to let our lights shine, so the gospel would shine to unbelievers. And when I mentioned this back in this thread, you ignored it. Jesus' instruction to his disciples only makes sense the way I'm interpreting it.
You're position is, it doesn't matter if believers let their light shine.
In fact the way you're interpreting scripture, what does it matter if Christ came into this world at all?

[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
+16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I'll just say this: just as Christ opened Saul's spiritual eyes on the road to Damascus, so too was Paul instructed by Christ to open the eyes of others (the elect) with the same gift as was given to him. Do you see that the same opening of the eyes occurred in both cases and is spiritual?

[Act 26:14-18 KJV]

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The opening of Paul's eyes was spiritual, and thereby did he know Christ as God, Lord and Saviour. Christ had APPEARED to Saul even though he was physically blind. He regained physical sight later. To have "appeared", and for Saul to have responded as he did, means that he received and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit then, not later.
Paul became saved at Jesus's appearing to him.

You believe salvation is only of works, I believe it is only of grace through/by Christ. The gulf between the two is too big to bridge. Therefore, I'm done with this discussion.

Gods' grace is that he didn't immediately destroy the sinners that attacked his Son, as any normal thinking person whose son was atracked (for having done nothing wrong) would have. Of course, when this was explained to Peters' countrymen, they asked,

Men and brethren, what shall we do? Act.2:37

They asked this question, because they understood what Peter said. So Peter answers,

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act.2:38

Repentance isn't a work of the flesh. People who find themselves in a repentant state aren't bragging about themselves.

 

[rogerg]

Gods' grace is that he didn't immediately destroy the sinners that attacked his Son, as any normal thinking person whose son was atracked (for having done nothing wrong) would have. Of course, when this was explained to Peters' countrymen, they asked,

Men and brethren, what shall we do? Act.2:37

They asked this question, because they understood what Peter said. So Peter answers,

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act.2:38

Repentance isn't a work of the flesh. People who find themselves in a repentant state aren't bragging about themselves.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[journeymanisnothing]

[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
+16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

Yes rogerg! Why are followers of Christ different savors to the saved and unsaved?
Because the unsaved thought the Messiah was being punished by God for his own sins, instead of punished by sinners to show his longsuffering toward people who hated him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

[2Ti 2:25 KJV]
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And again, I responded to this previously, as Paul is instructing Timothy that how the gospel is presented to lost people matters. He's saying they may see by your Christian conduct how God will receive them.
He isn't saying it doesn't matter whether your light shines or not, because people are zombies. And when I previously pointed this out, you said nothing.

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And when I previously pointed out how the writer is warning them to stay away from sin...

God permitting, we will do so. Heb.6:3

Why? Because people who continue in sin are,

crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb.6:6

Sinning is hating God. It's like nailing him to a cross. He's warning believers against taking the attitude that God will forgive them no matter what they do.

 

[rogerg]

Yes rogerg!

Nope. To those who reject the gospel that Christ is the Saviour: death. To those who through God hear (the elect) the gospel, and thereby they come to faith in Christ because they have been saved.

Because the unsaved thought the Messiah was being punished by God for his own sins, instead of punished by sinners to show his longsuffering toward people who hated him.

Are you saying that everyone who hated/hates Christ (His gospel) becomes saved? If not, then what was the purpose of "to show His longsuffering toward people"? Didn't Christ Himself bring forth salvation? Do you believe that Christ
is the Saviour? Yes or no?

 

[rogerg]

And again, I responded to this previously, as Paul is instructing Timothy that how the gospel is presented to lost people matters. He's saying they may see by your Christian conduct how God will receive them.
He isn't saying it doesn't matter whether your light shines or not, because people are zombies. And when I previously pointed this out, you said nothing.

I said nothing - so what? The point is that it is God who must GIVE that repentance, and it is repentance is to the acknowledging of the truth (Christ). There... I said something.

And when I previously pointed out how the writer is warning them to stay away from sin...

And that sin is in performing dead works for salvation.

God permitting, we will do so. Heb.6:3

Why? Because people who continue in sin are,

crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb.6:6

Sinning is hating God. It's like nailing him to a cross. He's warning believers against taking the attitude that God will forgive them no matter what they do.

Sin is in trusting/following a gospel of works (satan's gospel). Everyone who hates God's gospel of mercy and
grace, hates God. But, until saved, everyone by nature hates the true God and His gospel, but they love the gospel of satan, which gospel is of works for salvation.

In Heb 6:3, is saying that that foundation has already been formed and with God's blessing, they can move on to
teaching other doctrine. Nevertheless, the repentance remains one of repentance from dead works.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Nope. To those who reject the gospel that Christ is the Saviour: death. To those who through God hear (the elect) the gospel, and thereby they come to faith in Christ because they have been saved.

It's because they don't believe he rose from death. They believe he was being condemned by God.

Are you saying that everyone who hated/hates Christ (His gospel) becomes saved? If not, then what was the purpose of "to show His longsuffering toward people"? Didn't Christ Himself bring forth salvation? Do you believe that Christ
is the Saviour? Yes or no?

Of course Jesus is the Savior and our Savior decided not to kill the people who sinned by abusing him, which is why, we should understand,

the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation 2Pet.3:15

Peter goes on to say,

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some thingshard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pet.3:15-16

The "hard things to be understood" are that works of the law which can never save are always spoken of by Paul as those of pride in self, a show in the flesh, which the unlearned interpreted as, "there's nothing anyone has to do, including repent, to be saved." That is not what Paul meant.

 

[rogerg]

Of course Jesus is the Savior and our Savior decided not to kill the people who sinned by abusing him, which is why, we should understand,

What's your point? What does what you said have to do with salvation?

If Jesus is the Saviour, then there can be nothing left for the recipient of salvation to do to obtain it. If there
is, then Jesus can't be the Saviour. So. you just can't have it both ways - that would be a logical contradiction: it has to be all one way or all the other way.