Is believing/faith a work ?

[journeymanisnothing]

I said nothing - so what? The point is that it is God who must GIVE that repentance, and it is repentance is to the acknowledging of the truth (Christ). There... I said something.

And my response is, the next time you share the gospel with an unbeliever, when you're done, spit on the person you're speaking to. Don't share the gospel in meekness as Paul instructs Timothy. Share the gospel and when you're done, give the person you're speaking to a punch in the mouth. Jude makes the same point using fear as a motivation. Not fear of being spit on or punched, but fear in that if unbelievers don't repent, they face damnation.
Theire point is, it matters how we present the gospel.

And that sin is in performing dead works for salvation.

Sin is in trusting/following a gospel of works (satan's gospel). Everyone who hates God's gospel of mercy and
grace, hates God. But, until saved, everyone by nature hates the true God and His gospel, but they love the gospel of satan, which gospel is of works for salvation.

In Heb 6:3, is saying that that foundation has already been formed and with God's blessing, they can move on to teaching other doctrine. Nevertheless, the repentance remains one of repentance from dead works.

Heb.6:3 is warning believers against continuing in sin, as the Father sees sin the same way he saw the abuse of his Son. He's warning believers not to continue living ungodly lives, which Jude also agrees with,

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jde.1:5

When the Israelites left Egypt, they believed in God. Exo.15 shows this.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What's your point? What does what you said have to do with salvation?

If Jesus is the Saviour, then there can be nothing left for the recipient of salvation to do to obtain it. If there
is, then Jesus can't be the Saviour. So. you just can't have it both ways - that would be a logical contradiction: it has to be all one way or all the other way.

Repentance is confessing the sinners own shortcoming. It's acknowledging there is nothing we can do to be saved. We must rely on the mercy of God. This isn't "the works of the flesh."
By the mercy of God, Jesus showed us that it isn't his will to destroy sinners. If it was, he would have ripped the people who crucified him in half.......before they crucified him.

 

[rogerg]

And my response is, the next time you share the gospel with an unbeliever, when you're done, spit on the person you're speaking to. Don't share the gospel in meekness as Paul instructs Timothy. Share the gospel and when you're done, give the person you're speaking to a punch in the mouth. Jude makes the same point using fear as a motivation. Not fear of being spit on or punched, but fear in that if unbelievers don't repent, they face damnation.
Theire point is, it matters how we present the gospel.

What matters the most is the gospel that is being preached: whether a true gospel of grace or a false one of works.
God gives repentance to whom He has chosen - it is a part of God's gift. Unless saved, no one can repent regardless
of how presented but how it is presented can provide wisdom, which if not presented humbly, can deny it to the hearer. Nevertheless, there is nothing that anyone can do to be, or not to be saved. Repentance comes from salvation.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What matters the most is the gospel that is being preached: whether a true gospel of grace or a false one of works.

Yes and the gospel was not only known from writing, but by how It was lived,

You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone, 2Cor.3:2

Those believers knew that the unsaved were watching them.

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. Jn.13:35

God gives repentance to whom He has chosen -

Yes and I said before,

did not God choose the.......rich in faith, Jas.2:5

He chose Abraham because Abe believed him.
(There is rabbinical myth that Abrams' dad owned an idol shop. One day, dad had an errand to run and left his son in charge of the store. After his dad left, Abram took a hammer and smashed all the idols in the store, excrpt for one. He put the hammer in that idols hand. When dad returned, he saw the mess and asked what happened. Abram pointed to the idol when th the hammer and said, "That onesmashed all the others." His father replied, "Don't be silly! Idols can't do anything!!" To which his son said, "That's right!!!")

Of course, this oral tale isn't in the Bible, but it does make sense that when Abraham heard God calling to him, he left and it wasn't because idols could keep him there.

it is a part of God's gift. Unless saved, no one can repent regardless of how presented but how it is presented can provide wisdom, which if not presented humbly, can deny it to the hearer. Nevertheless, there is nothing that anyone can do to be, or not to be saved. Repentance comes from salvation.

Repentance comes from seeing the injustice done to a loving Savior.
That sister I told you about who led me to Jesus, that was in answer to a sincere prayer I prayed one night, lying in bed weeping, because I was at the end of my rope.
So please rogerg, try to understand how God drew me to him by circumstance. I heard God was merciful all my life, but until then, I had no reason to ask him for it.

 

[Randy]

I'll just say this: just as Christ opened Saul's spiritual eyes on the road to Damascus, so too was Paul instructed by Christ to open the eyes of others (the elect) with the same gift as was given to him. Do you see that the same opening of the eyes occurred in both cases and is spiritual?

[Act 26:14-18 KJV]

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The opening of Paul's eyes was spiritual, and thereby did he know Christ as God, Lord and Saviour. Christ had APPEARED to Saul even though he was physically blind. He regained physical sight later. To have "appeared", and for Saul to have responded as he did, means that he received and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit then, not later.
Paul became saved at Jesus's appearing to him.

You believe salvation is only of works, I believe it is only of grace through/by Christ. The gulf between the two is too big to bridge. Therefore, I'm done with this discussion.

Paul came to believe in Christ through that encounter, (faith),but Jesus waited for Paul to receive Him (accept) as He didn't send Ananias to Paul until Paul was praying. At that time Paul was baptized and was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Paul is a exception as he himself stated God set him apart from birth. But he was chosen for Gods purposes. And I believe I was saved by GRACE not works. I do not believe I was set aside from birth. I was steered to Christ by my Christian mother. God provided the lamb and I was purchased by the blood of Christ for God. That was the work of God not mine. (grace)

Access to God by the blood of Jesus not by works.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,

But Jesus let out a loud cry, and died. 38And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom

 

[JLB]

I answered this exact question in my last reply to you. Your post above does
not change any of that.

One cannot believe from the heart unless the heart is changed first. To be saved is the only way
for the heart to be changed.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?


The hearing is spiritual hearing, and for that, God has to give spiritual ears.
That can only happen by becoming saved.


I answered this exact question in my last reply to you. Your post above does
not change any of that. Did you observe the verses in it-- that those who hear have ears to hear have them because they have been blessed by God? Not all ears are so blessed.
Again, salvation is not a work that we can perform for ourselves in any sense, it is only imparted as a gift of God. Anything besides it being a gift would make it a work and we cannot be saved by our works. First, through God, a person is saved, and from/by that, do all the Christian attributes flow.

Why is it so difficult to understand that God and God alone is the Saviour and that we are not?
Please, read the below verses carefully.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Non of your scriptures address my question.

In fact the scriptures you quoted validate my position that a person must hear and believe the message of Jesus Christ.

Our washing of regeneration comes

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, Titus 3:4-6

Through Jesus Christ refers to the Gospel. The message of Jesus Christ; the gospel of our salvation. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved.

Regeneration comes by hearing and believing the Gospel.


How can a person be saved by Jesus if they have never heard of Him?

• How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• And how shall they hear without a preacher?

How can they believe in someone they have never heard of?


Please explain how a person is to believe in Jesus Christ, if they have never heard of Him. Please use scripture.

 

[rogerg]

In fact the scriptures you quoted validate my position that a person must hear and believe the message of Jesus Christ.

Then I don't understand what you're asking. Didn't you quote this verse?

[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

In that verse, belief and confession are made from/because of, the heart. With a natural heart, the other things in the verse cannot occur.

My reply was that of itself, the heart of natural man is wicked and cannot believeth unto righteousness. So,
something external to itself must first occur for it to change. That something is salvation/being born again by God.

[Rom 3:11 KJV]
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

To demonstrate that a new heart is given by God in salvation, read the below verses. Notice the
"I will give you" parts. To have a new heart, one that is not deceitful above all things, God must
remove the old one in its entirely, replacing with a new one, spiritually speaking. God does not
do this for everyone but only for those whom He has chosen. We can know this, because not everyone
becomes saved - those who received a new heart became saved first - those not saved
do/did not receive a new heart. The receiving of a new heart is a part of the salvation process along with
the receiving of the other Christian attributes

[Eze 11:19 KJV]
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[rogerg]

Paul came to believe in Christ through that encounter, (faith),but Jesus waited for Paul to receive Him (accept) as He didn't send Ananias to Paul until Paul was praying.

Wait.... you are saying based upon the following exchange that Paul didn't accept Christ instantaneously at that time? Acceptance of Christ wasn't (and isn't) initiated by the will of recipient (Paul), but by the will of the giver (Christ). In fact, it must be Christ who must accepts someone, not the reverse.
Jesus said, "I am Jesus of Nazareth...", and immediately Paul replied, "What shall I do, Lord?". Paul then proceeded to do what Christ instructed him to do. Did Paul of himself need to do anything of himself to "accept" Christ, or was Christ evident to him solely and completely because of Christ? By Paul's following of Jesus's instructions, we can know the He knew Christ as Saviour.
It is the same with those who become saved. Upon salvation, through Christ, the knowledge of Christ as the Saviour in all ways, becomes evident to them, with nothing besides that needed (from them) to make it so.

[Act 22:8, 10-11 KJV]
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. ...
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

 

[Randy]

Wait.... you are saying based upon the following exchange that Paul didn't accept Christ instantaneously at that time? Acceptance of Christ wasn't (and isn't) initiated by the will of recipient (Paul), but by the will of the giver (Christ). In fact, it must be Christ who must accepts someone, not the reverse.
Jesus said, "I am Jesus of Nazareth...", and immediately Paul replied, "What shall I do, Lord?". Paul then proceeded to do what Christ instructed him to do. Did Paul of himself need to do anything of himself to "accept" Christ, or was Christ evident to him solely and completely because of Christ? By Paul's following of Jesus's instructions, we can know the He knew Christ as Saviour.
It is the same with those who become saved. Upon salvation, through Christ, the knowledge of Christ as the Saviour in all ways, becomes evident to them, with nothing besides that needed (from them) to make it so.

[Act 22:8, 10-11 KJV]
8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. ...
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

The scripture shows when Paul was baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit and it wasn't when he was blinded from the light of heaven. Jesus sent Ananias to Paul when He saw Paul was praying as noted in the text.

 

[rogerg]

Please explain how a person is to believe in Jesus Christ, if they have never heard of Him. Please use scripture.


Since you don't believe people are saved by hearing and believing the message of Jesus Christ, then explain to all of us how a person is saved, without ever hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is simple: Christ alone is the Saviour. A person becomes saved only if/by God having chosen them to salvation - it is by His good pleasure since He is God. Everything else, at a time of God's choosing that pertains to Christianity, comes to them as a result of that, to include the hearing of the gospel and all else. The names of those to be saved, God had written into the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of the world. Those names cannot be changed, nor added to, nor removed. Therefore, they must be saved, and they cannot, not, be saved. As such, they do not participate in the saving, nor contribute to it in any sense. Salvation is solely of a spiritual process by God; it is not of an intellectual process by man.

Are these good enough? There are a lot more - in fact, in one way or another, that doctrine forms the basis of the entire Bible, but I think that they say it all, and should be sufficient for you if you read them closely enough.

[Eph 2:7-10 KJV]
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[journeymanisnothing]

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act.8:14-16

The End

 

[GodsGrace]

This is simple: Christ alone is the Saviour. A person becomes saved only if/by God having chosen them to salvation - it is by His good pleasure since He is God. Everything else, at a time of God's choosing that pertains to Christianity, comes to them as a result of that, to include the hearing of the gospel and all else. The names of those to be saved, God had written into the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of the world. Those names cannot be changed, nor added to, nor removed. Therefore, they must be saved, and they cannot, not, be saved. As such, they do not participate in the saving, nor contribute to it in any sense. Salvation is solely of a spiritual process by God; it is not of an intellectual process by man.

Are these good enough? There are a lot more - in fact, in one way or another, that doctrine forms the basis of the entire Bible, but I think that they say it all, and should be sufficient for you if you read them closely enough.

[Eph 2:7-10 KJV]
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Roger
For ephesians 2:8, you forgot to underline the words THROUGH FAITH.

It is troublesome.
I've asked you to exegete eph 2,8 a few times.
Now I see why you don't answer,,,you don't read the entire verse.

We are saved THROUGH FAITH.
First comes faith
Then comes salvation.

 

[rogerg]

We are saved THROUGH FAITH.

I have and you didn't reply. It is by the faith of Christ, not by the faith of the individual that one is saved

 

[rogerg]

We are saved THROUGH FAITH.
First comes faith
Then comes salvation.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[rogerg]

Roger
For ephesians 2:8, you forgot to underline the words THROUGH FAITH.

Did you see the "not of yourselves" part? If salvation is a gift as the verse tells us, how then could the faith that saves be of the person?

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Roger
For ephesians 2:8, you forgot to underline the words THROUGH FAITH.

It is troublesome.
I've asked you to exegete eph 2,8 a few times.
Now I see why you don't answer,,,you don't read the entire verse.

We are saved THROUGH FAITH.
First comes faith
Then comes salvation.

This makes perfect sense with,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Paul is simply saying our Lord came of himself as a gift,

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:11

Paul says this, because in Titus 2:1-10, he instructs believers on how they should conduct themselves.....because in vs.11, that's how Jesus conducted himself. to all men. So our faith can come from the light of Christ in believers.

 

[rogerg]

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act.8:14-16

Are you still on this subject? Your point is what? That for someone to be in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit
an apostle must lay hands on them (see Acts 8:17)? Really? That's going to be kind of hard to arrange nowadays. How did Simon see that the Holy Spirit was in them? Is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit outwardly discernable? I don't think so - you should really look at all of the verses surrounding the ones you've chosen to get the full context. The Holy Spirit gives His fruit to those when He first indwells, and no one can determine to whom He has based upon the external, save, for a change in someone's attitude and actions. No, this event is the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit - a special circumstance for a special purpose.

Notice that to have faith, one must first have the Holy Spirit, not the reverse.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Act 8:17 KJV]
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

[Act 8:18 KJV]
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Notice the "he hath given us of his Spirit", not that the Sprit is given because of ourselves
[1Jo 4:13 KJV]
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Look, I'm kind of tired going back and forth with you on
this kind of stuff and I can't see how continuing will sway either of us.
This is seriously the last time I will reply.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Are you still on this subject? Your point is what? That for someone to be in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit
an apostle must lay hands on them (see Acts 8:17)? Really? That's going to be kind of hard to arrange nowadays. How did Simon see that the Holy Spirit was in them? Is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit outwardly discernable? I don't think so - you should really look at all of the verses surrounding the ones you've chosen to get the full context. The Holy Spirit gives His fruit to those when He first indwells, and no one can determine to whom He has based upon the external, save, for a change in someone's attitude and actions. No, this event is the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit - a special circumstance for a special purpose.

Notice that to have faith, one must first have the Holy Spirit, not the reverse.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Act 8:17 KJV]
17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

[Act 8:18 KJV]
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Notice the "he hath given us of his Spirit", not that the Sprit is given because of ourselves
[1Jo 4:13 KJV]
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Look, I'm kind of tired going back and forth with you on
this kind of stuff and I can't see how continuing will sway either of us.
This is seriously the last time I will reply.

My point was,

Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jn.14:22

Desiring Jesus is required before Christ lives in us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have and you didn't reply. It is by the faith of Christ, not by the faith of the individual that one is saved

Roger,
I replied or apologize if I neglected to do so.
Really busy these days.

Most assuredly I said the you're misexegeting Galatians 5. Most theologians have accepted this to mean FAITHFULNESS. The Holy Spirit surely helps us to remain faithful, IF we allow Him to.

I believe I had posted a list of translation.

The FRUIT of the Holy Spirit is FAITHFULNESS. If you read the verse properly all the attributes are of a saved person who is living for God and how his life has CHANGED.

For we are transformed we are new creatures.
2 cor 5,17.

Gal 5,22 is speaking of those ALREADY saved.
It does NOT support WHEN we are saved. You'll have to use other support verses to show that we are saved first and then get faith.

Gal 5 does not support your position.

 

[GodsGrace]

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

??
The above does not support your position.
Where in this verse does it state that salvation comes before faith??