Is believing/faith a work ?

[GodsGrace]

Did you see the "not of yourselves" part? If salvation is a gift as the verse tells us, how then could the faith that saves be of the person?

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This is correct.
We are not saved by our works, but by faith in Christ.

Faith is a GIFT God offers to man.
NOT a FRUIT of our salvation once we accept it.

For God desires that all men be saved...
1 Tim 2,4
Isaiah 45,22

He has made a plan for fallen man
John 3,16
Eph 1,13

 

[Randy]

I have and you didn't reply. It is by the faith of Christ, not by the faith of the individual that one is saved

Faith in Christ which is held by the individual and comes to Jesus for life. (salvation)

A faith that comes by hearing the gospel message. (receiving the knowledge of the truth)

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

That seed. (the words of God) falls on different types of soil as Jesus explained.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[rogerg]

We are not saved by our works, but by faith in Christ.

wondering,
you are twisting the verse. If someone is saved because
they have of themselves placed their faith in Christ then it would have
been through themselves and not as a gift. The verse is saying
that everything pertaining to salvation is a gift. If we have to contribute
to it, then it isn't one. Do you see the "not of yourselves" part?

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[brightfame52]

randy

Faith in Christ which is held by the individual and comes to Jesus for life. (salvation)

Faith in Christ comes with Salvation and Spiritual life, its all out of Grace

A faith that comes by hearing the gospel message. (receiving the knowledge of the truth)

But the Hearing comes from being Alive by the Spirit

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

All that is Gods work, He may use a preacher to preach, but all those things are Gods work, opening spiritual eyes, turning one from darkness and the power of satan to God, forgiveness of sins, faith in Christ
That seed. (the words of God) falls on different types of soil as Jesus explained.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

The good soil is the new regenerated heart, opposed to the others who had just the sinful natural heart. So Matt 13:23 confirms regeneration before Faith.

 

[rogerg]

A faith that comes by hearing the gospel message. (receiving the knowledge of the truth)

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

See brightfame52's reply

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

wondering,
you are twisting the verse. If someone is saved because
they have of themselves placed their faith in Christ then it would have
been through themselves and not as a gift.

Thats correct, they became their own saviour by what they did, based upon a quality, virtue they had and exercised it

The verse is saying
that everything pertaining to salvation is a gift. If we have to contribute
to it, then it isn't one. Do you see the "not of yourselves" part?

Well you know what Jesus said Lk 8:10

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

We can only pray God will be merciful upon His own in His time !

 

[rogerg]

Please explain how this happens to a person, without them ever hearing and believing in Christ.

A person who becomes saved has done nothing of themselves to invoke it, that is why Jesus has the title of Saviour and we don't- it is completely a work of God. I guess you can say salvation just comes upon someone - even in spite of themselves. That someone has become saved demonstrates itself through the having and exhibiting of the fruits of the Spirit. You seem to be approaching it from a "there's something we have to do to get it" perspective, which, it isn't. Salvation is by a spiritual process completely by God. It is not by an intellectual process by those who have been saved.
It is all God's work, not ours.

 

[rogerg]

How can a person be saved if they have never heard of Jesus?

Our hearing of Jesus is not what saves us. To hear, (spiritual hearing, that is), is as a result of salvation not its cause.
God has assumed a commitment upon Himself that all whom He has chosen, and saves, WILL hear the gospel in one
form or another. From that, they will come to faith in Christ, but that is not what saves, instead, faith is a fruit that comes from being saved. Jesus is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is the result of hearing and believing the message of salvation.

No one can do that of themselves. You assume it is within the power of someone to objectively hear the gospel and respond to it, but it isn't. To hear spiritually, one must first be given a renewed mind which only occurs from becoming
born again.

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,
you are twisting the verse. If someone is saved because
they have of themselves placed their faith in Christ then it would have
been through themselves and not as a gift. The verse is saying
that everything pertaining to salvation is a gift. If we have to contribute
to it, then it isn't one. Do you see the "not of yourselves" part?

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

I don't understand your point.
We are saved by grace...
God's love for His creatures.
God loves His creatures and gives them a way of escape from damnation.

Through Faith...
We are saved by God's plan for man's salvation THROUGH FAITH...

GRACE, FAITH AND SALVATION ARE GIFTS FROM GOD.

And that NOT OF YOURSELVES....
Our salvation is not of our own doing THROUGH WORKS,
so that none may boast that they are saved and others are not.

Where are we not agreeing?
What am I twisting?

 

[rogerg]

Our salvation is not of our own doing THROUGH WORKS,
so that none may boast that they are saved and others are not.

Salvation is not of our doing, period. You're trying to have it both ways at the same time. Salvation
is either a gift or it isn't. If it is (and it is), then it must be a gift fully and completely, with nothing at all required from its recipient. The verse tells us that it is a gift.

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg



Thats correct, they became their own saviour by what they did, based upon a quality, virtue they had and exercised it



Well you know what Jesus said Lk 8:10

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

We can only pray God will be merciful upon His own in His time !

How are we our own Savior if the NT clearly states we cannot be saved by works?

Please show me where in this thread ANYONE stated that we are saved by works.

You continue to post this blatant lie and do not respond when you're asked to show where a member has stated this.

 

[rogerg]

How are we our own Savior if the NT clearly states we cannot be saved by works?

Anyone who says that saving faith is of/by themselves is in effect saying that salvation is by works.
Anything not of a gift is a work.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation is not of our doing, period. You're trying to have it both ways at the same time. Salvation
is either a gift or it isn't. If it is (and it is), then it must be a gift fully and completely, with nothing at all required from its recipient. The verse tells us that it is a gift.

Of course it's a gift from God.
We cannot save ourselves as brightfame52 keeps bringing up and as NO ONE on this forum believes to be true and no true, mainline Christian believes to be true.

It is a GIFT, but we have to desire that gift.
God reveals Himself to us and we MUST RESPOND with a yes or a no.

Jesus cried over Jerusalem and He said that they were UNWILLING to come to Him.
Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

The Prodigal Son was lost.
His Father was waiting for him with open arms.
But he had to RETURN HOME of his own free will, and ask forgiveness.
Luke 15:18-24
18‘I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men.”’
20“So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21“And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22“But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Please note:
verse 18: The son decided to GET UP AND GO to his father. The son made a decision.
verse 20: So he got up and CAME TO THE FATHER. The son took an action.
verse 21: The son asked for forgiveness. In YOUR paradigm, when would anyone ask forgiveness???
verse 24: The son was LOST but became ALIVE AGAIN because of the above actions that he took.

Please remember that it is JESUS telling this parable to show GOD'S love for us
and that we MUST TAKE ACTION in order to be saved.

God provides the salvation,
but we must want it.

 

[rogerg]

It is a GIFT, but we have to desire that gift.

No "but" allowed for this gift. otherwise, it isn't a gift.
Did Saul desire it?

 

[Randy]

randy



Faith in Christ comes with Salvation and Spiritual life, its all out of Grace



But the Hearing comes from being Alive by the Spirit



All that is Gods work, He may use a preacher to preach, but all those things are Gods work, opening spiritual eyes, turning one from darkness and the power of satan to God, forgiveness of sins, faith in Christ
That seed. (the words of God) falls on different types of soil as Jesus explained.



The good soil is the new regenerated heart, opposed to the others who had just the sinful natural heart. So Matt 13:23 confirms regeneration before Faith.

Jesus didn't state the good soil is the new regenerated heart. That's your twist which you seem to add over and over to all kinds of scripture.

 

[Randy]

No "but" allowed for this gift. otherwise, it isn't a gift.
Did Saul desire it?

Paul is a exception and was chosen by God for HIS purposes. Out of the billions and billions of people born into the world only one apostle abandoned their office. A office that exists beyond the life of the body. As in 12 thrones to sit and judge. Talk about winning a lottery.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

 

[rogerg]

Paul is a exception and was chosen by God for HIS purposes

No. No exceptions to God's salvation plan - everyone is saved in the same way: Everyone who is saved is saved by Jesus.
Everyone saved by God was chosen by God. God used Saul but He used a lot of people during that period too,
that doesn't mean they were exceptions or saved on a different basis than anyone else was.
Where is it stated that he was a salvation plan exception? Jesus saved him on the road to Dimarcus, period

 

[rogerg]

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

No one can believe in His name unless that belief is given them by God:

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Randy]

No one can believe in His name unless that belief is given them by God:

[Rom 3:10-12 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Faith FIRST as in God teaches. Then Christ is received through that faith.