Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

No actually thats what I am saying, that those Christ died for will be caused to believe on Him because of His death. So if a person is never brought to faith in Christ, its obvious Christ did not die for them.

You are the one who believes that the sacrifice of Christ isnt enough to cause faith in Him, since you believe people He died for can and do wind up dying in their sins in unbelief.

 

[Edward]

Once again: Jesus death results in spiritual life to them He died for. Faith comes with Spiritual life

Jesus died for everyone.

John 3:16-18
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave[g] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.../


It says everyone who believes, the world. It does not say Jesus died for the chosen. It is a free gift, yes. But He needs our cooperation to be able to save us. We need to be a believer, which indicares action on our part, walking in it, not just being a hearer and not a doer. Praying. Seeking Him through His Word. Spiritual things, not works, that's all material.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus died for everyone.

John 3:16-18
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave[g] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.../


It says everyone who believes, the world. It does not say Jesus died for the chosen. It is a free gift, yes. But He needs our cooperation to be able to save us. We need to be a believer, which indicares action on our part, walking in it, not just being a hearer and not a doer. Praying. Seeking Him through His Word. Spiritual things, not works, that's all material.

The Jesus I know died for everyone His death saved.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No actually thats what I am saying, that those Christ died for will be caused to believe on Him because of His death.

People believe because of his resurrection, not because of an unknown arbitrary decision by God.

So if a person is never brought to faith in Christ, its obvious Christ did not die for them.

The truth is, since God set the parameters of salvation, we can truthfully say,
A) God didn't allow some people to be saved,
and
B) Some people prevented themselves from being saved.

Both are true, but you're don't see how.

You are the one who believes that the sacrifice of Christ isnt enough to cause faith in Him,

I remember it was enough for me.

since you believe people He died for can and do wind up dying in their sins in unbelief.

Yes, because people reject Jesus of their God given free will, not because our Lord said, "Eenie meenie minee moe."

if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn.8:24

repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mk.1:15

And they went out, and preached that men should repent. Mk.6:12

whoso confesseth and forsaketh them (his sins) shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

 

[brightfame52]

People believe because of his resurrection, not because of an unknown arbitrary decision by God.

The truth is, since God set the parameters of salvation, we can truthfully say,
A) God didn't allow some people to be saved,
and
B) Some people prevented themselves from being saved.

Both are true, but you're don't see how.

I remember it was enough for me.

Yes, because people reject Jesus of their God given free will, not because our Lord said, "Eenie meenie minee moe."

if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn.8:24

repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mk.1:15

And they went out, and preached that men should repent. Mk.6:12

whoso confesseth and forsaketh them (his sins) shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

So like I said, you are guilty of the thing you accused me of. This:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

So like I said, you are guilty of the thing you accused me of. This:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

You're the one claiming paeople can't believe the Savior to forgive anyone who repents as he said.

 

[brightfame52]

You're the one claiming paeople can't believe the Savior to forgive anyone who repents as he said.

So you agree that its you that believe this:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

 

[rogerg]

Yes, because people reject Jesus of their God given free will, not because our Lord said, "Eenie meenie minee moe."

if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn.8:24

Well, let me ask you a question, one that I've asked others before with the same views as yours, but don't believe that I've ever received an answer to it. The question is, according to your belief regarding how someone becomes saved (which of course, I do not believe correct, nor possible), what happens to those who through no fault of their own, whether they be physically or mentally incapable of understanding so as to come to faith, or in a geographical location that does/did not permit access to the gospel to hear and come to faith, what will their eternal spiritual condition/situation be without having faith in Christ? If you choose to answer, please back it up with scripture, if you choose not to answer, please let us know so as not to keep waiting for it. If you need clarification, let me know and I'll try to provide it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

So you agree that its you that believe this:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

I already told you our Lords' sacrifice was enough for me. I understand perfectly that God chooses people because of their faith, not for some unknown reason,

The just shall live by faith. Hab.2:4, Rom.1:17

 

[journeymanisnothing]

what happens to those who through no fault of their own, whether they be physically or mentally incapable of understanding so as to come to faith, or in a geographical location that does/did not permit access to the gospel to hear and come to faith, what will their eternal spiritual condition/situation be without having faith in Christ?

As far as people who through no fault of their own are mentally challenged, I have no idea how Christ will judge them. The reason I can't answer this is, nobody knows for sure if a person we consider mentally incapabable, really is.

As far as people living in a geographical location where they never heard of Jesus, of course they can be saved, because God has never left himself without a witness,

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.....There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa.19:1,3

Paul said,

when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law.....one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you Rom.2:12,27

He's speaking of consciousness possessed by every gentile on planet earth (with the possible exception of mentally impaired people.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As far as people who through no fault of their own are mentally challenged, I have no idea how Christ will judge them. The reason I can't answer this is, nobody knows for sure if a person we consider mentally incapabable, really is.

As far as people living in a geographical location where they never heard of Jesus, of course they can be saved, because God has never left himself without a witness,

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.....There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa.19:1,3

Paul said,

when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law.....one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you Rom.2:12,27

He's speaking of consciousness possessed by every gentile on planet earth (with the possible exception of mentally impaired people.)

The question posed as to what happens to those who do not hear the gospel because they live where it is not, is basically a question that is trying to get the believers to say that God is unjust and sends them to hell anyway because "they did not accept Jesus" which is no where in the gospels in any case. That is the main reason the question is asked. It is an attempt to pin injustice on God. At its heart, it is an accusation from the enemy who accuses God and the believers of wrong.

Your answer is quite good and I agree. What the basic answer is they will be judged based on the works of their lives. Those of us who know God, know that He is completely just but since his whole thinking is beyond us, and the details of the matters to be judged are not known to us, we cannot give a comprehensive answer that silences the accusation. That is, no one attempting to accuse God of evil based on their incomplete knowledge of Him (often totally wrong) will be satisfied by any answer we can give. Neither of us knows enough information to give the details of HOW He is just except by the scripture you gave which is true but scanty as to details.

Anyway, it is good to keep in mind that those ready to accuse God of injustice will not be satisfied. Any mind happy to embrace that conclusion will not be dissuaded by those who know and trust Him.

 

[brightfame52]

I already told you our Lords' sacrifice was enough for me. I understand perfectly that God chooses people because of their faith, not for some unknown reason,

The just shall live by faith. Hab.2:4, Rom.1:17

Im not talking about you, this isnt about you, its about the effect of Christs death to sinners,

So you agree that its you that believe this:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

 

[Edward]

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

Romans 12:3 says we are each given a measure of faith. This is all people. Using your logic, no one was saved until after Jesus's sacrifice. So all old testament people are doomed?

But by faith Abraham was justified so that can't be so.

 

[Randy]

Of course, God can communicate with anyone, but He doesn't. He only communicates with those whom He has chosen.

[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Please, read these verses closely. We are told in them that it is IMPOSSIBLE for natural man (the unsaved), to know or come to faith in Christ, of themselves. Natural man will not take to heart that which he considers foolishness. Therefore, it cannot be by "outward witness", nor by the "wisdom of man" that he learns, but only first by direct intervention and teaching of the Spirit of God. Notice, that it doesn't say by "observing" but by "teacheth". Further, no one can "abide in Him" unless he has first been taught of God.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV]
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Again God is the one teaching. What you state is impossible with man is not impossible with God. God can communicate with anyone at anytime. "Whosoever" believes in the Lord shall be saved.

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.

The Apostles were in ministry. That may or may not be why the Holy Spirit was with them but it was with them before it was in them. They believed in Jesus just as Mary and Martha before them were born of God. Jesus told them they were already clean because of the word He spoke to them.

Jesus prayed for those who believed in Him and those who would come to believe in Him through their message. After Jesus has risen everything was explained and made plain to all who are willing to listen. It is stated that Satan is the one who sows the weeds and leads the whole world astray. As in the children of the evil one vs the children of God.

 

[rogerg]

The question posed as to what happens to those who do not hear the gospel because they live where it is not, is basically a question that is trying to get the believers to say that God is unjust and sends them to hell anyway because "they did not accept Jesus" which is no where in the gospels in any case. That is the main reason the question is asked. It is an attempt to pin injustice on God. At its heart, it is an accusation from the enemy who accuses God and the believers of wrong.

No, it was definitely NOT to show an injustice with God, it was to show the incorrectness in a belief
where it is up to man, of themselves, to acquire the faith necessary to invoke salvation. If faith is a
requirement for salvation and yet there are those who are unable to satisfy that requirement due to an accident of birth or of life (so to speak), then that wouldn't/couldn't be fair nor a salvation worthy of God.

Your answer is quite good and I agree. What the basic answer is they will be judged based on the works of their lives. Those of us who know God, know that He is completely just but since his whole thinking is beyond us, and the details of the matters to be judged are not known to us, we cannot give a comprehensive answer that silences the accusation. That is, no one attempting to accuse God of evil based on their incomplete knowledge of Him (often totally wrong) will be satisfied by any answer we can give. Neither of us knows enough information to give the details of HOW He is just except by the scripture you gave which is true but scanty as to details.

Okay, so there is more than one plan of salvation, with the second not being of Jesus as Saviour, is that correct?
I've never read of such a salvation in the Bible. If there is one, then those under it are in a lot of trouble, indeed, because they would never be able to define the works necessary to achieve it, nor of how many of them are required, nor when they've achieved them. Further, and again, if someone doesn't know they are under those criteria
because they don't even know any such criteria exist because they don't have a Bible nor informed of such, then once again, it would be unfair and unworthy of God. So, tell me, with specifics, not generalities, provide references where that doctrine is defined in the Bible, and the requirements that will satisfy them.
If someone is not covered by the offering of Christ, then their sin must remain: there is no alternative to Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 12:3 says we are each given a measure of faith. This is all people. Using your logic, no one was saved until after Jesus's sacrifice. So all old testament people are doomed?

But by faith Abraham was justified so that can't be so.

Rom 12:3 is limited to believers, for they were given Faith as a result of Christ dying for them.

 

[rogerg]

Rom 12:3 is limited to believers, for they were given Faith as a result of Christ dying for them.

Brightfame52, could it also mean an ability TO measure Christ's faith; that is, those saved are given the ability to measure/assess Christ's faith - the measurement being that it resulted in bringing forth salvation?

 

[rogerg]

Whosoever" believes in the Lord shall be saved.

The "whosoever" are only the elect - those saved, not a potential pool of all of mankind.

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

True belief is a gift given only to those whom God has chosen to save, but not to everyone.

The Apostles were in ministry. That may or may not be why the Holy Spirit was with them but it was with them before it was in them. They believed in Jesus just as Mary and Martha before them were born of God. Jesus told them they were already clean because of the word He spoke to them.

Jesus prayed for those who believed in Him and those who would come to believe in Him through their message. After Jesus has risen everything was explained and made plain to all who are willing to listen. It is stated that Satan is the one who sows the weeds and leads the whole world astray. As in the children of the evil one vs the children of God.

Yes, and your point is? Only those whom God has chosen to salvation will/can come to a true belief in Christ. No one else can.

 

[Edward]

You guys got some nutty ideas. Is the earth really flat too?

If what you say is truth, then why doesn't God teach me the same truths? And according to what the Holy Spirit has taught me, you guys are way off base.

That Bible is not a book of truth, it is The book of truth.

Where do you get these so called truths? it's not from the same book I read.

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame52, could it also mean an ability TO measure Christ's faith; that is, those saved are given the ability to measure/assess Christ's faith - the measurement being that it resulted in bringing forth salvation?

Hi Roger, I never thought of it that way, but its feasible. But believers are the Seed of Abraham manifested as Per Rom 4:16-17

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

So each person who belongs to that spiritual seed is allotted faith as part of their inheritance. Peter stated it this way 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Now pay close attention to the word obtained, its the greek word lagchanō:

1. o obtain by lot
   1. to receive by divine allotment, obtain
2. to cast lots, determine by lot

So the words dealt/measure in Rom 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith

dealt is merizō:

1. to divide
   1. to separate into parts, cut into pieces
      1. to divide into parties, i.e. be split into factions
   2. to distribute
      1. a thing among people
      2. bestow, impart

And the word measure metron:

determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit: with a genitive of the thing received,

So I believe Rom 12:3 and 2 Pet 1:1 are speaking of the same thing as to God giving Faith to a seed. And notice 2 Pet 1:1 mentions Saviour because whomever God saves, the heirs, are allotted their portion of Faith