Is believing/faith a work ?

[Randy]

"dwelleth": present tense

but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you

with not in

 

[Randy]

What does the outward witness of the Spirit even mean? Does it mean signs, wonders and miracles? If so, then no, it would be impossible to garner true faith from that. Were it possible, then the Jews of the exodus who had observed first-hand God's power, might, and miracles, to include the hearing of God's own voice by the mount that burned, and it being a sight so terrible that even Moses said that he exceedingly feared and quaked, the Jews should have unconditionally, permanently, followed after God. Therefore, based upon your theory of OT faith if true, and seeing and hearing what they did, they should never have never strayed unto false gods, nor to not worship the one true God. But nevertheless, stray they did. So, your theory (if I've described it correctly), cannot possibly be right. Demonstrations of any kind, even those directly from/by God, but being without the Holy Spirit present, could not/did not bring them to faith. Faith isn't an intellectual process it is a spiritual gift. To have faith, one must have Christ. To receive Christ is from the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself is the sole author and finisher of faith.


[Deu 4:11-13 KJV]
11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

[Heb 12:20-21 KJV]
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake


Didn't you read the verses I posted or are you ignoring them? They clearly state that the Holy Spirit was with those saved during the OT. If the Spirit didn't change their hearts and minds, then no outward demonstrations would do so and would be meaningless to them. Only the presence of the Spirit being with an individual had made that happen, man, either in OT or NT, of himself, could not achieve it.

The Holy Spirit was in David DURING the OT.

[Psa 51:11 KJV] 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit was in Abraham DURING the OT
[Gen 41:38 KJV] 38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?

It means those who listen to the Father and learn from Him go to Jesus

 

[rogerg]

with not in

Doesn't matter - it was still by the Holy Spirit that Peter knew Jesus was the Christ. The Holy Spirit is God.

 

[rogerg]

It means those who listen to the Father and learn from Him go to Jesus

Impossible. Can't hear without the Holy Spirit

 

[heartwashed]

They do if you adhere to them, as liars are not going to heaven.

We cease from lying as the result of being saved; not the other way around.

Those with faith will only tell the truth.
Those not telling the truth don't have faith.

I agree. Although, there have been times when I have been pressured not to tell the truth and haven't told it; and I believe that I am still a believer even though that occurred. What matter is that I confessed it as sin.

My salvation won't be determined until the last day, so how can anything here and now be a "result" of it?

Salvation is determined at the moment of first faith (John 5:24). Hearing Jesus' words and beleiving on Him who sent Him, we pass from death into everlasting life.

If our spiritual life ever comes to an end, it was not everlasting from the getgo by definition; but rather would be defined as temporal.

 

[Hopeful]

We cease from lying as the result of being saved; not the other way around.

I would say "we cease from lying because we have been reborn of God's seed.
But there is still a day of judgement coming.

I agree. Although, there have been times when I have been pressured not to tell the truth and haven't told it; and I believe that I am still a believer even though that occurred. What matter is that I confessed it as sin.

"God heareth not sinners", (John 9:31), unless it is the very last time you sin due to a real repentance from sin.

Salvation is determined at the moment of first faith (John 5:24). Hearing Jesus' words and beleiving on Him who sent Him, we pass from death into everlasting life.

Our life will illustrate if we really believe "in Him".
As no sinners are "in Him" our lives will be without sin.

If our spiritual life ever comes to an end, it was not everlasting from the get go by definition; but rather would be defined as temporal.

I don't even think those who will be sent to the lake of fire will have an end of their spiritual life.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Again no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him Jn 6:44 The drawing is Gods special grace , Spiritual power.

The Father draws people to his Son through hearing and learning about the Father. Understand? No arbitrary choice by the Father. The reason people are drawn to the Son is because he's the express image of the Father they heard and learned about. It's reasonable they would be attracted to him.

 

[heartwashed]

"God heareth not sinners", (John 9:31), unless it is the very last time you sin due to a real repentance from sin.

If anyone comes to God on the basis of Jesus' shed blood, and not on the basis of their own righteousness, God will hear them. For their sin is not imputed to them (Romans 4:8).

But those who come to God on the basis of their own righteousnesses are coming on the basis of filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

As no sinners are "in Him" our lives will be without sin.

1Jo 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Of course this is speaking of indwelling sin; and not practically sinning.

So yes, in receiving Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we will cease from being sinners, with the definition of "sinners" being "those who sin."

Under the definition of "those who have indwelling sin", it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief (1 Timothy 1:15; see also Jeremiah 17:9).

I don't even think those who will be sent to the lake of fire will have an end of their spiritual life.

Yes, if anyone has a beginning of spiritual life with genuine faith in God, their spiritual life will never end. And they will never be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Hopeful]

If anyone comes to God on the basis of Jesus' shed blood, and not on the basis of their own righteousness, God will hear them.

Agreed.

For their sin is not imputed to them (Romans 4:8).

The only ones whose sins not imputed unto them are those who have turned from sin and been baptized into Christ.

But those who come to God on the basis of their own righteousnesses are coming on the basis of filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

Who would come to God on "the basis" of anything?
Folks come to God to praise and thank Him.
Or they come to God for forgiveness.
You need to clarify what you mean by "on the basis of".

1Jo 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John writes of two different kinds of people in 1 John 1...those who walk in darkness and those who walk in light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those who walk in darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those who walk in light.
Those walking in darkness/sin cannot say they have no sin, but those walking in light/God certainly can.
As there is no sin in God, in whom we walk.

Of course this is speaking of indwelling sin; and not practically sinning.

Same thing.
Sin is sin, and separation from the light.

So yes, in receiving Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we will cease from being sinners, with the definition of "sinners" being "those who sin."

Agreed.
Only sinners sin.

Under the definition of "those who have indwelling sin", it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief (1 Timothy 1:15; see also Jeremiah 17:9).

Yes, he was the worst...before he repented and was washed of past sins. (Acts 22:16)
And he remains the worst, because he persecuted the early church.

Please define "indwelling sin".
I mean, one either sins or you doesn't commit sin.

Yes, if anyone has a beginning of spiritual life with genuine faith in God, their spiritual life will never end. And they will never be cast into the lake of fire.

The key there is "genuine".

 

[heartwashed]

Please define "indwelling sin".

Rom 7:18, For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Randy]

Impossible. Can't hear without the Holy Spirit

They are hearing FROM God.
"They shall all be taught by God"

 

[brightfame52]

I would state a person is a slave to sin unless Jesus frees them but baptism into Christ was shown as a outward pledging of a clear conscience towards God and people were capable of repenting before God before Christ came down its only in Christ that sin is "removed."

Do you understand what Acts 5:31 is saying ?

 

[rogerg]

They are hearing FROM God.
"They shall all be taught by God"

Wait... your argument to begin with was that they didn't have the Holy Spirit (God), right? And if they didn't have Him, then how could they have heard or be taught of Him since He wasn't with them?

 

[brightfame52]

The Father draws people to his Son through hearing and learning about the Father. Understand? No arbitrary choice by the Father. The reason people are drawn to the Son is because he's the express image of the Father they heard and learned about. It's reasonable they would be attracted to him.

The drawing is quickening, regeneration, spiritual life. In fact a person must be spiritually alive to learn of the things of God, to hear the spiritual things of god

 

[brightfame52]

Wait... your argument to begin with was that they didn't have the Holy Spirit (God), right? And if they didn't have Him, then how could they have heard or be taught of Him since He wasn't with them?

Correct, because Jesus tells us who it is that hears Gods words here Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now what does it mean to be of God ? I believe it means to be born of God

 

[brightfame52]

Correct, because Jesus tells us who it is that hears Gods words here Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now what does it mean to be of God ? I believe it means to be born of God

And the word for heareth here akouō means

1. to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2. to comprehend, to understand

Jesus had told these same ones a few verses earlier Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear[understand] my word.

 

[heartwashed]

The drawing is quickening, regeneration, spiritual life. In fact a person must be spiritually alive to learn of the things of God, to hear the spiritual things of god

No, the person drawn has the option of rejecting Christ; and therefore drawing does not = regeneration; regeneration only happens when a person actually receives Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The drawing is quickening, regeneration, spiritual life. In fact a person must be spiritually alive to learn of the things of God, to hear the spiritual things of god

I understand your belief in people being born into this world spiritually dead, but no one is born without God given ability to grow and think and learn about God. Everyone has these gifts.

the tongue.....therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Jas.3:8-9

 

[brightfame52]

No, the person drawn has the option of rejecting Christ; and therefore drawing does not = regeneration; regeneration only happens when a person actually receives Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

No sir, the person drawn has been made alive spiritually, they are being led by the Spirit. They are the children of God. The word draw means :

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Jesus is using the word metaphorically, and its indicating God the Spirit leading to Christ. Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That word led means

1. to move, impel: of forces and

Also draw means inward power, again that's the Spirit in a person which makes them a Child of God

 

[brightfame52]

journey

I understand your belief in people being born into this world spiritually dead,

Correct, dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So we do nothing Godward until given life

but no one is born without God given ability to grow and think and learn about God.

They may think on a god, but the True and Living God man is dead to. Alienated . Sure man naturally realizes there is a higher power, like they do at a AA meeting or something, thats why its 4000 plus religions in the world, but none of them know the True God, save the one where God gives life to, Spiritual life.

the tongue.....therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Jas.3:8-9

Thats talking about the elect, those born of God. Man in Adam was made after Gods Image, but he lost it when he sinned and became dead to God, but when he is newly created he regains that image even to a higher, nobler status Eph 4:24
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: