Is believing/faith a work ?

[Hopeful]

Rom 7:18, For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Thanks, but that doesn't define it.
It just uses the term.
I can see how the connection can be made though.
Aren't you thankful we don't have to walk in the "flesh" anymore?

Jer 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That wasn't true for Jesus , and it isn't true for those reborn of God's seed. (1 John 3:9)
We now have a new heart, along with the rest of us being a new creature. (2 Cor 5:17)
Thanks be to God !

 

[heartwashed]

No sir, the person drawn has been made alive spiritually, they are being led by the Spirit. They are the children of God. The word draw means :

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Jesus is using the word metaphorically, and its indicating God the Spirit leading to Christ. Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That word led means

1. to move, impel: of forces and

Also draw means inward power, again that's the Spirit in a person which makes them a Child of God

You are incorrect.

Those who are drawn gave an opportunity to receive Christ and this is not = to receiving Christ and neither does this guarantee their receiving of Christ.

A person who is drawn to Christ but who does not receive Christ is not regenerated; in order to be regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost, a person must receive Christ. Otherwise they do not have the power to become a son of God (John 1:12).

A person is a son of God if they have received the Spirit of God and also walk according to His dictates, leadings and guidings instead of the dictates of the flesh.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journey

Correct, dead in trespasses and sins Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So we do nothing Godward until given life

Christ did give his life. <----- This is your problem. You don't acknowledge his sacrifice as THE WORK of the Holy Spirit, whereby sinners come to faith in God.

They may think on a god, but the True and Living God man is dead to. Alienated .

So Paul preaced at Mars hill to the Greeks for a reason.

Sure man naturally realizes there is a higher power, like they do at a AA meeting or something, thats why its 4000 plus religions in the world, but none of them know the True God, save the one where God gives life to, Spiritual life.

No brightflame52,
man does not naturally realize there is a higher power. In fact many do not believe in a "higher power." They're called atheists and they believe what they do through their education. In fact, all people have the ability to believe or disbelieve what they have been taught.

Thats talking about the elect, those born of God.

Then you're saying Paul gives liberty for believers to curse unbelievers. Jesus never taught this. Jesus said,

bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, Mt.5:44

Which is why Paul taught,

Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rom.12:14

So you're wrong.

Man in Adam was made after Gods Image, but he lost it when he sinned and became dead to God,

God never told Adam he was spiritually dead. Adam hid as any child who knew he disobeyed his dad. He understood how much his sin hurt his Father and was repentant.

but when he is newly created he regains that image even to a higher, nobler status Eph 4:24
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Paul is instructing the church to put on the new man by following his Spirit in what they think and do, being "created" in righteousness. He doesnt mean after Adam sinned, Adam had no faculties from God. He's teaching the gentiles how they once "gave themselves over" to sin, not that they "were born that way."

 

[brightfame52]

You are incorrect.

Those who are drawn gave an opportunity to receive Christ and this is not = to receiving Christ and neither does this guarantee their receiving of Christ.

A person who is drawn to Christ but who does not receive Christ is not regenerated; in order to be regenerated and renewed in the Holy Ghost, a person must receive Christ. Otherwise they do not have the power to become a son of God (John 1:12).

A person is a son of God if they have received the Spirit of God and also walk according to His dictates, leadings and guidings instead of the dictates of the flesh.

You are incorrect, being drawn denotes a new creation, new life given.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ did give his life. <----- This is your problem. You don't acknowledge his sacrifice as THE WORK of the Holy Spirit, whereby sinners come to faith in God.

So Paul preaced at Mars hill to the Greeks for a reason.

No brightflame52,
man does not naturally realize there is a higher power. In fact many do not believe in a "higher power." They're called atheists and they believe what they do through their education. In fact, all people have the ability to believe or disbelieve what they have been taught.

Then you're saying Paul gives liberty for believers to curse unbelievers. Jesus never taught this. Jesus said,

bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, Mt.5:44

Which is why Paul taught,

Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rom.12:14

So you're wrong.

God never told Adam he was spiritually dead. Adam hid as any child who knew he disobeyed his dad. He understood how much his sin hurt his Father and was repentant.

Paul is instructing the church to put on the new man by following his Spirit in what they think and do, being "created" in righteousness. He doesnt mean after Adam sinned, Adam had no faculties from God. He's teaching the gentiles how they once "gave themselves over" to sin, not that they "were born that way."

You not paying attention. Man cant do anything until he is given life, quickened from the dead Eph 2:1,2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Until quickened, made alive, man is spiritually dead, a corpse. Yes he may be alive physically, but spiritually dead.

 

[heartwashed]

You are incorrect, being drawn denotes a new creation, new life given.

You are incorrect. There are people who have been drawn to Christ who have not made a decision for Christ.

Such have not been regenerated, they are not new creations, new life has not been given.

 

[Randy]

Wait... your argument to begin with was that they didn't have the Holy Spirit (God), right? And if they didn't have Him, then how could they have heard or be taught of Him since He wasn't with them?

No, I have stated one could believe in God before they were born again via the outward witness of the Spirit and that would include hearing or coming to the knowledge of the truth as stated in the gospel message.

God has the ability to communicate to anyone at anytime.

As I have shown from the book of Jonah God is concerned about all. Jonah was mad that God had mercy on them when the whole nation repented before Him.

 

[rogerg]

No, I have stated one could believe in God before they were born again via the outward witness of the Spirit and that would include hearing or coming to the knowledge of the truth as stated in the gospel message.

God has the ability to communicate to anyone at anytime.

As I have shown from the book of Jonah God is concerned about all. Jonah was mad that God had mercy on them when the whole nation repented before Him.

Of course, God can communicate with anyone, but He doesn't. He only communicates with those whom He has chosen.

[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Please, read these verses closely. We are told in them that it is IMPOSSIBLE for natural man (the unsaved), to know or come to faith in Christ, of themselves. Natural man will not take to heart that which he considers foolishness. Therefore, it cannot be by "outward witness", nor by the "wisdom of man" that he learns, but only first by direct intervention and teaching of the Spirit of God. Notice, that it doesn't say by "observing" but by "teacheth". Further, no one can "abide in Him" unless he has first been taught of God.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV]
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You not paying attention. Man cant do anything until he is given life, quickened from the dead Eph 2:1,2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Until quickened, made alive, man is spiritually dead, a corpse. Yes he may be alive physically, but spiritually dead.

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

 

[brightfame52]

You are incorrect. There are people who have been drawn to Christ who have not made a decision for Christ.

Such have not been regenerated, they are not new creations, new life has not been given.

Wrong, when one is drawn they are bon again, they are the same thing.

 

[brightfame52]

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

Those folk who Christ died for, His Sheep, they are quickened made alive, thats a by-product of His death and resurrection for them, and them exclusively!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

thats a by-product of His death and resurrection for them

Not to Calvanists, because you're claiming Jesus' death and resurrection is completely ineffective in causing belief without some other grace first. You are wrong.

 

[heartwashed]

Wrong, when one is drawn they are bon again, they are the same thing.

If that were the case, then everyone who is drawn to Christ would make a decision for Christ.

However, there are some who, being drawn to Christ, end up rejecting Christ for whatever reason.

This is because drawing and regeneration are not the same thing.

A person is only regenerated when they receive Christ.

And not all who are drawn to Christ, receive Christ.

Therefore it seems to me that you are trying to say that there are those who do not receive Christ, who are born again.

 

[brightfame52]

Not to Calvanists, because you're claiming Jesus' death and resurrection is completely ineffective in causing belief without some other grace first. You are wrong.

Jesus death results in spiritual life to them He died for. Faith comes with Spiritual life

 

[brightfame52]

If that were the case, then everyone who is drawn to Christ would make a decision for Christ.

However, there are some who, being drawn to Christ, end up rejecting Christ for whatever reason.

This is because drawing and regeneration are not the same thing.

A person is only regenerated when they receive Christ.

And not all who are drawn to Christ, receive Christ.

Therefore it seems to me that you are trying to say that there are those who do not receive Christ, who are born again.

Everyone drawn to Christ is saved. If a person isn't saved, they werent drawn to Christ. Thats impossible.

 

[heartwashed]

Everyone drawn to Christ is saved. If a person isn't saved, they werent drawn to Christ. Thats impossible.

However, if a person has been drawn to Christ, they may not be saved.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Jesus death results in spiritual life to them He died for. Faith comes with Spiritual life

Not even for your belief in "them he died for", because you've made his entire life on earth, for anyone, innefective by itself. Calvanist claim salvation is by a special leading, apart from the witness of Jesus.
You're wrong.

 

[Randy]

Of course, God can communicate with anyone, but He doesn't. He only communicates with those whom He has chosen.

[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Please, read these verses closely. We are told in them that it is IMPOSSIBLE for natural man (the unsaved), to know or come to faith in Christ, of themselves. Natural man will not take to heart that which he considers foolishness. Therefore, it cannot be by "outward witness", nor by the "wisdom of man" that he learns, but only first by direct intervention and teaching of the Spirit of God. Notice, that it doesn't say by "observing" but by "teacheth". Further, no one can "abide in Him" unless he has first been taught of God.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV]
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

So?
You don't start out born again. As with the Apostles the Spirit was with them before it was IN them.

Also Jesus taught all are taught by God.
He stated those who listen and learn as in what God is teaching come to Him.
He didn't teach that those who listen were prechosen or that those who don't listen were not chosen. That fault -not to listen or busy with other things in life, would be found in the hearts of man not God not choosing them.

The parable of the Sower bears that out. Not once did Jesus state that the good seed falls on those God chose not to save or falls on those God chose to save.

 

[brightfame52]

However, if a person has been drawn to Christ, they may not be saved.

Thats absolutely false, when one is drawn they are born again, they are one and the same. So is a born again person saved ?

 

[brightfame52]

Not even for your belief in "them he died for", because you've made his entire life on earth, for anyone, innefective by itself. Calvanist claim salvation is by a special leading, apart from the witness of Jesus.
You're wrong.

Once again: Jesus death results in spiritual life to them He died for. Faith comes with Spiritual life