Is believing/faith a work ?

[Dorothy Mae]

No, it was definitely NOT to show an injustice with God, it was to show the incorrectness in a belief
where it is up to man, of themselves, to acquire the faith necessary to invoke salvation.

So who is it up to if not man? Why are WE and not the other responsible party told to believe?

If faith is a
requirement for salvation and yet there are those who are unable to satisfy that requirement due to an accident of birth or of life (so to speak), then that wouldn't/couldn't be fair nor a salvation worthy of God.

Who do you think those people are? Who is unable to believe in your eyes?

Okay, so there is more than one plan of salvation, with the second not being of Jesus as Saviour, is that correct?

Do you know the ways of God?

I've never read of such a salvation in the Bible. If there is one, then those under it are in a lot of trouble, indeed, because they would never be able to define the works necessary to achieve it, nor of how many of them are required, nor when they've achieved them. Further, and again, if someone doesn't know they are under those criteria
because they don't even know any such criteria exist because they don't have a Bible nor informed of such, then once again, it would be unfair and unworthy of God.

This is loading down the whole thing with untrue premise, one after another.

So, tell me, with specifics, not generalities, provide references where that doctrine is defined in the Bible, and the requirements that will satisfy them.
If someone is not covered by the offering of Christ, then their sin must remain: there is no alternative to Christ.

What if they never sinned? Babies never sin.

 

[rogerg]

As far as people who through no fault of their own are mentally challenged, I have no idea how Christ will judge them. The reason I can't answer this is, nobody knows for sure if a person we consider mentally incapabable, really is.

As far as people living in a geographical location where they never heard of Jesus, of course they can be saved, because God has never left himself without a witness,

So, you don't believe Christ alone is the Saviour, is that correct? Think about what you're saying - that no one can know for sure if they've been saved or not and they'll have no way to know it. Does that sound fair or right to you - where God has hidden the rules, but you nevertheless are going to be judged by them, really?
Regarding, the geographical location, I'm asking not if they have access to a witness, but what happens to them if
they don't?

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.....There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa.19:1,3

Paul said,

when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law.....one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you Rom.2:12,27

He's speaking of consciousness possessed by every gentile on planet earth (with the possible exception of mentally impaired people.)

Wait.... wouldn't any true plan of salvation have to be able to make those who are covered by it, to conform to it - and be such that it can handle all possible exceptions without any modification of itself - kind of like a perfectly straight Texas highway that stretches as far as the eye can see?

 

[rogerg]

So who is it up to if not man? Why are WE and not the other responsible party told to believe?

God.

Who do you think those people are? Who is unable to believe in your eyes?

In my eyes, no one can believe of themselves - ever. But... the argument I was making was that should someone believe that a person can (which I don't), if they, for whatever reason, do not have access to the gospel - whether physical, mental, location issues, then if acquiring faith is of us, they would not be able to have access to the gospel to know it or to bring forth a faith in Christ.

Do you know the ways of God?

Hmmm. Regarding salvation? Yes, maybe not totally, but for the major points I do.

This is loading down the whole thing with untrue premise, one after another.

Well, either someone has had access to the gospel, or they didn't, nor that they have they ever heard it.
My point is what happens to them then - given that having belief it is up to the person,
of themselves, to come to faith in Christ.

What if they never sinned? Babies never sin.

how then do you interpret the following?

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God.

So it’s completely God’s fault so many go to hell?

In my eyes, no one can believe of themselves - ever.

In Gods eyes it’s completely our choice. God’s eyes count more.

But... the argument I was making was that should someone believe that a person can (which I don't), if they, for whatever reason, do not have access to the gospel - whether physical, mental, location issues, then if acquiring faith is of us, they would not be able to have access to the gospel to know it or to bring forth a faith in Christ.

What people cannot mentally believe and how do you know this?

Hmmm. Regarding salvation? Yes, maybe not totally, but for the major points I do.

Why then does God choose some to believe and others not, since this is your view and that’s major. Since you know his ways in major you ought to know this.

Well, either someone has had access to the gospel, or they didn't, nor that they have they ever heard it.

There are those who are saved who never heard the gospel beforehand. I know one.

My point is what happens to them then - given that having belief it is up to the person,
of themselves, to come to faith in Christ.

Do you think God is unjust? Does he have to submit his plan to you for your approval?

how then do you interpret the following?

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jewish hyperbole. What babies speak at all the day of birth let alone speaking lies?

[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David’s mother (not David) committed sin (adultery) when he was conceived. What else?

 

[rogerg]

So it’s completely God’s fault so many go to hell?

:No, it was satan, Adam and Eve's fault. God gave fair warning to them.

[1Co 15:22 KJV] 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Gods eyes it’s completely our choice. God’s eyes count more.

No, it isn't. The true gospel is hidden except to those whom God had chosen to reveal it to.
Again, if it is completely our choice, then what about those who can't choose, is it their choice too?

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are those who are saved who never heard the gospel beforehand. I know one.

Well, if that's true (which I don't think it is or could be), then the only way they
could have come to faith is through God, which is what my point is - that faith is only
through/by God, not of ourselves.

Why then does God choose some to believe and others not, since this is your view and that’s major. Since you know his ways in major you ought to know this.

God chose not to reveal His reasoning or rational. It was His divine prerogative to choose whomever He wanted, for whatever reason (or not), that He wanted. Since He is the one who paid for the salvation of those saved, it was His choice to make it as He saw fit. This too is knowing His ways in major. The critical point is to know what, not how.
And it is not yours to pass judgement on what someone can/should know or not about the Bible

Do you think God is unjust? Does he have to submit his plan to you for your approval?

That makes no sense. He wrote the Bible for our edification - why else do you think God gave it to us?
I approve nothing - I just know what I read, and what I told you is what the Bible tells everyone.

Jewish hyperbole. What babies speak at all the day of birth let alone speaking lies?

Oh, okay - good to know that you don't believe the Bible was written by God. If you choose to discount parts
of the Bible because you don't like or agree with them, you are forming your own Bible and ignoring God's words.
That puts you in very great spiritual jeopardy. I suggest that you tread very carefully, indeed.


[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

David’s mother (not David) committed sin (adultery) when he was conceived. What else?

No, not David's mother, all born are conceived in inequity and sin, not just David. With this verse, God
is demonstrating a spiritual principle.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

In my eyes, no one can believe of themselves - ever

Correct, one cant believe of himself, not in the True Christ. Believing is given as a Gift of Gods Grace in the New Birth Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Its not given to everybody to believe in Christ, for Salvation because He didnt die for everyone.

The non elect are responsible for their reaction towards the Gospel, the True Gospel that is, because its the True Testimony of God, and if we dont believe the record, for the record sake, we make God a liar 1 Jn 5:10

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[Randy]

The "whosoever" are only the elect - those saved, not a potential pool of all of mankind.


True belief is a gift given only to those whom God has chosen to save, but not to everyone.


Yes, and your point is? Only those whom God has chosen to salvation will/can come to a true belief in Christ. No one else can.

You define whosoever but Jesus never preached in that manner. He stated those who believe in Him not those who were prewritten in the book of life. The early witness of Christ was costly with loss of life. A price according to your belief was meaningless as if your prewritten in the book of life your in and you can't do anything otherwise. Well God can. People are capable of understanding the gospel message which is explained with meanings in the NT. Nothing has been hidden. Most children follow the religion of their parents. Small children believe in Santa which also usually comes by their parents. Faith in the truth comes from hearing and hearing comes from the word of God. I believe God sees that faith in Him and responds to it by His Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Well, if that's true (which I don't think it is or could be), then the only way they
could have come to faith is through God, which is what my point is - that faith is only
through/by God, not of ourselves.

As I think about it Roger, even though its not the ordinary means, yet God is quite able to regenerate an elect Babie in the womb or inside the mothers belly and communicate the Gospel to them and cause them to believe.

Im not dogmatic about that though. But I also believe that non elect babies are sinners, even though they havenet devloped physically enough to manifest it. Do I believe non elect babies go to hell ? Yes, but not as babies, I believe they will be changed to adulthood, , their torment will not be a severe as those who lived full lives of rebellion against God, Read Lk 12:47-48

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[brightfame52]

randy wrote

I believe God sees that faith in Him and responds to it by His Spirit.

Thats merit works salvation. God responding to a sinner, lol anyway that's a wage then

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

So it’s completely God’s fault so many go to hell

No, but its His Will and Purpose being fulfilled

Rom 9:17-18

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

He hardened Pharoah to destruction, so he probably in hell !

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

Jewish hyperbole. What babies speak at all the day of birth let alone speaking lies?

No its not just a jewish hyperbole, its the word of God. We not God and cant see the human heart as He does, we at best looketh upon outward appearance 1 Sam 16:7

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

God looks at a babies heart and says Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God can see the seeds of deceit and wickedness in a baby's heart, you and I cant.

Also as innocent as babies may be from birth, they are still nothing more than the flesh, which Jesus told Nicodemus Jn 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

See being born of the flesh just dont cut it with God, it wouldnt matter if we went back into the womb and born over, still just flesh, and thats sinful flesh. Paul said Rom 7:18

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And notice Jesus started out as a new born babe which denotes His People whom He identified with and came to save, their sinful life starts there. So He kept the Law for them from being a new born babe until the Cross.

Do you believe something good dwelled in his flesh when he was a baby ? NOPE, all of us are born of a unclean woman Job “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.” Job 14:4

When we as babies are born we are born of corruptible seed, versus if we are born again we are born as newborn babes of incorrupible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

David’s mother (not David) committed sin (adultery) when he was conceived. What else?

You confused, It was Solomons Mother Bathsheba who David committed Adultery with, there is nothing in scripture stating Davids Mother committed Adultery !

 

[rogerg]

As I think about it Roger, even though its not the ordinary means, yet God is quite able to regenerate an elect Babie in the womb or inside the mothers belly and communicate the Gospel to them and cause them to believe.

brightfame52, absolutely, positively agree with that. King David tells us as much. We know beyond question
that David was not only saved but also a prophet, so he definitely went to heaven. If David has gone to heaven which he has, then his son is there too.

[2Sa 12:22-23 KJV]
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Yes, I can accept that, but I also wonder if maybe it means that for those who have become saved, that God
will instruct them in this life in ways that are often painful to them until they learn the lesson. God continues to make it more and more painful until He gets their attention, and that they respond as He desires them to respond. God knows precisely what we don't like and goes right to it should we do that which is not pleasing in His eyes.

[Heb 12:8 KJV] 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not
sons.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Im not talking about you, this isnt about you, its about the effect of Christs death to sinners,

Our Lords' sacrifice is about all sinners in need of Gods' grace, so yes it is about me and every individual.

So you agree that its you that believe this:

And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him.

No, that's what you believe, because you believe "atonement is limited" to people because of a false teaching called "irresistable grace", which is not the same as the grace of God shown to all mankind by Christ.
Calvanists believe without "irresistable grace".......the grace of Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough to save anyone. You're wrong.

 

[rogerg]

You define whosoever but Jesus never preached in that manner. He stated those who believe in Him not those who were prewritten in the book of life.

No one can believe with a true belief, UNLESS their name is in the book of life. Belief is a gift of God for those
whom He has chosen for it, others not.

[Jhn 10:25-29 KJV]
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The question posed as to what happens to those who do not hear the gospel because they live where it is not, is basically a question that is trying to get the believers to say that God is unjust and sends them to hell anyway because "they did not accept Jesus" which is no where in the gospels in any case. That is the main reason the question is asked. It is an attempt to pin injustice on God. At its heart, it is an accusation from the enemy who accuses God and the believers of wrong.

Your answer is quite good and I agree. What the basic answer is they will be judged based on the works of their lives. Those of us who know God, know that He is completely just but since his whole thinking is beyond us, and the details of the matters to be judged are not known to us, we cannot give a comprehensive answer that silences the accusation. That is, no one attempting to accuse God of evil based on their incomplete knowledge of Him (often totally wrong) will be satisfied by any answer we can give. Neither of us knows enough information to give the details of HOW He is just except by the scripture you gave which is true but scanty as to details.

Anyway, it is good to keep in mind that those ready to accuse God of injustice will not be satisfied. Any mind happy to embrace that conclusion will not be dissuaded by those who know and trust Him.

I see the gospel of Jesus as those who did accuse him of injustice. That's why they sinned further against him by not only accusing, but convicting and executing. Our Savior held his wrath back against the worst humanity has to offer.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

So, you don't believe Christ alone is the Saviour, is that correct?

No that isn't correct. What I said was, God himself took a beating, but you think he was beating himself.

Think about what you're saying - that no one can know for sure if they've been saved or not and they'll have no way to know it.

No, I never said one bit of what you're claiming. I can know for sure if I'm saved, but I have no right to say I know whether other people are saved.

Does that sound fair or right to you - where God has hidden the rules, but you nevertheless are going to be judged by them, really?

I don't know what "rules" you're referring to. I showed you how it's not possible to know everything a person with a mental malady is thinking. It's not even possible for me and you to know what each other are always thinking, but it doesn't matter, because Jesus is our Judge.
We will never judge anyone by pointing fingers. In the end, the redeemed will condemn the unsaved simply by their appearance.

Regarding, the geographical location, I'm asking not if they have access to a witness, but what happens to them if they don't?

I just showed you, there is no place where Gods' witness can't be found. You want to imagine an impossible situation and then find a logical answer.

Wait.... wouldn't any true plan of salvation have to be able to make those who are covered by it, to conform to it - and be such that it can handle all possible exceptions without any modification of itself - kind of like a perfectly straight Texas highway that stretches as far as the eye can see?

Yes it would and I was ignored before by you when I said the "plan of salvation" is "a covenant".....an agreement between God and those who agree with him.

 

[rogerg]

Yes it would and I was ignored before by you when I said the "plan of salvation" is "a covenant".....an agreement between God and those who agree with him.

I'm not going to continue to rehash the same ground with you. But I will respond to your
point about God's covenant being an agreement between Him and those who agree with Him. I do so because you are wrong. The covenant was established by God alone. Man had/has no choice of whether to participate in it or not. It is all by God and by the strength of His arm. Notice in the below verses, that it plainly says, " THAT I WILL MAKE", and not that "WE WILL MAKE". This is because it is only a covenant by God, not by man.

[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[Heb 8:13 KJV]
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[Heb 10:17-18 KJV]
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

brightfame52, absolutely, positively agree with that. King David tells us as much. We know beyond question
that David was not only saved but also a prophet, so he definitely went to heaven. If David has gone to heaven which he has, then his son is there too.

[2Sa 12:22-23 KJV]
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Yeah it seems that David may have received from the Lord a conviction that the babe went to paradise.

brightfame52, absolutely, positively agree with that. King David tells us as much. We know beyond question
that David was not only saved but also a prophet, so he definitely went to heaven. If David has gone to heaven which he has, then his son is there too.

[2Sa 12:22-23 KJV]
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.



Yes, I can accept that, but I also wonder if maybe it means that for those who have become saved, that God
will instruct them in this life in ways that are often painful to them until they learn the lesson. God continues to make it more and more painful until He gets their attention, and that they respond as He desires them to respond. God knows precisely what we don't like and goes right to it should we do that which is not pleasing in His eyes.

[Heb 12:8 KJV] 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not
sons.

I believe God chastens His children, but dont think Lk 12:47-48 is about that.

 

[brightfame52]

Our Lords' sacrifice is about all sinners in need of Gods' grace, so yes it is about me and every individual.

No, that's what you believe, because you believe "atonement is limited" to people because of a false teaching called "irresistable grace", which is not the same as the grace of God shown to all mankind by Christ.
Calvanists believe without "irresistable grace".......the grace of Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough to save anyone. You're wrong.

So you believe that the sacrifice /death of Christ was enough to cause faith in everyone He died for ? Well dont you teach Christ died for every individual in the world ? Yes or no ?

 

[rogerg]

I just showed you, there is no place where Gods' witness can't be found. You want to imagine an impossible situation and then find a logical answer.

You're saying that from Christ until now, there have always been His witnesses
throughout the whole world? Africa, South America, North Pole, South Pole,
China, ETC. from then to now? There is not
one person who hasn't heard the gospel? Really?