Is believing/faith a work ?

[journeymanisnothing]

So you believe that the sacrifice /death of Christ was enough to cause faith in everyone He died for ? Well dont you teach Christ died for every individual in the world ? Yes or no ?

Yes. While you and I were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You're saying that from Christ until now, there have always been His witnesses
throughout the whole world? Africa, South America, North Pole, South Pole,
China, ETC. from then to now? There is not
one person who hasn't heard the gospel? Really?

The passages I cited say from the beginning of the world, creation itself testifies of Gods' eternal power.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Where did they do that?

The charge was blasphemy, not injustice.

It doesn’t say he was wrathful at that point. Says he had mercy. But his wrath was poured out in 70AD.

Blasphemy is injustice against God. The point I was making is that God is longsuffering toward sinners, giving people time to repent.

 

[rogerg]

They aren’t dead. They think and feel and choose. They are not dead. They are unaware, but not literally dead. Dead people don’t choose.

Not physically dead, spiritually dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead. Someone, who is alive physically, can at the same time be dead spiritually. What part of this verse don't you understand?
Look at the "dead in your sins". A spiritually dead person can't give themselves spiritual life
just as a physically dead person can't give themselves physical life. Do you see the
"being dead in your sins" part? Yet, God, for those whom He has chosen for salvation, He alone, quickens (makes alive), to spiritual life from spiritual death. Can you see below that it is God who does it and that they contribute nothing? To change that doctrine is to change the Bible.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Blasphemy is injustice against God.

I don’t see that and men aren’t responsible for God feeling unjustly spoken of although defending Him is in those who love Him.

The point I was making is that God is longsuffering toward sinners, giving people time to repent.

He does but it’s better to say the truth about the charges against Jesus. It was blasphemy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not physically dead, spiritually dead, and spiritually dead is spiritually dead.

What does that mean exactly? Which part of a man is dead? Be specific, not etheral. The man lives and breathes and thinks and senses truth and as a conscience, feels guilty knows truth and some actually believe.

Someone, who is alive physically, can at the same time be dead spiritually. What part of this verse don't you understand?

What cannot they not do? Be down to earth.

Look at the "dead in your sins". A spiritually dead person can't give themselves spiritual life
just as a physically dead person can't give themselves physical life. Do you see the
"being dead in your sins" part? Yet,

So Christians gives themselves spiritual life? God unnecessary?

God, for those whom He has chosen for salvation, He alone, quickens (makes alive), to spiritual life from spiritual death.

No scripture for that. Says he wants ALL to repent and come to the truth (be saved.) No scripture says He chooses some for hell and some for heaven.

Can you see below that it is God who does it and that they contribute nothing?

No, Jesus told men to believe and did not tell God to choose them to believe. When the centurion believed he didn’t praise God.

To change that doctrine is to change the Bible.

No, it’s to believe the Bible, you change it.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Where is “saved for heaven” in there? Notice he says merely “quicken” not “saved.” He quickens those who don’t become saved too.

How come Jesus never told the crowd that they were dead and couldn’t believe anyway? How come He didn’t pray for God to “quicken them” when he spoke?

 

[rogerg]

The passages I cited say from the beginning of the world, creation itself testifies of Gods' eternal power.

I don't think we are going to be able to reconcile our different points of view with this,
and we could continue with it ad infinitum, with it expanding and becoming more and more vague.
You know what I believe, and I know the same about you so I can't see any further benefit
in continuing it.

 

[rogerg]

What does that mean exactly? Which part of a man is dead? Be specific, not etheral. The man lives and breathes and thinks and senses truth and as a conscience, feels guilty knows truth and some actually believe.

How do you interpret these verses? They clearly say, "dead in sin". What do you think it means?
These aren't my words, they are directly from the Bible.
They were "dead in sins", yet were obviously alive physically. The body can be dead or alive, likewise
with the spirit. So, why don't you interpret for us what the "dead" below means.
What was "dead" since the body obviously wasn't?

[Eph 2:5 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you interpret these verses? They clearly say, "dead in sin". What do you think it means?

I asked you. You think it’s not a metaphor but real.

These aren't my words, they are directly from the Bible.

Yes, a metaphor.

They were "dead in sins", yet were obviously alive physically. The body can be dead or alive, likewise
with the spirit. So, why don't you interpret for us what the "dead" below means.

I asked YOU what it means.

What was "dead" since the body obviously wasn't?

I asked you.

[Eph 2:5 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So, what exactly can these dead people not do in your view?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think we are going to be able to reconcile our different points of view with this,
and we could continue with it ad infinitum, with it expanding and becoming more and more vague.
You know what I believe, and I know the same about you so I can't see any further benefit
in continuing it.

I guess this means you cannot answer my question as to what it means. You can only repeat the scripture with no explanation or am I mistaken? I’m pretty sure you don’t know what it means. I do and it’s a metaphor. They weren’t dead, just unaware. Their eyes weren’t opened. That’s also a metaphor but closer to describing the experience. You guys like “dead” because you can then tack on that dead people can’t…..so God must. If we use a different metaphor then “God must do it all” doesn’t work.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthy mae

The person a life guard saves isn't dead.

Thats why that analogy is insufficient, Jesus is a Saviour that saves sinners from being dead in sin. They need life, to be quickened. Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

As Saviour He quickens, gives Life 1 Cor 15:45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam[Christ] was made a quickening spirit.

Because the people He saves are dead !

 

[brightfame52]

dorthey mae

They aren’t dead. They think and feel and choose.

They dead spiritually and cant think, feel, or choose Spiritually.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. While you and I were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Answer me this: You said of me this"And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him."

So do you believe everyone Christ died for , His death will cause them to have in Him ? Yes or No

 

[rogerg]

I guess this means you cannot answer my question as to what it means. You can only repeat the scripture with no explanation or am I mistaken?

Yes, you are mistaken. I was trying to get you to think about it and reason it out for yourself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

metaphors used to describe the state of being unsaved to saved (which is also a metaphor sort of):

1) Not yet born again vs born again
2) Blind but then seeing
3) Lost and then found
4) Dead and then alive

All describe the same state.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, you are mistaken. I was trying to get you to think about it and reason it out for yourself.

You’re right. I am mistaken. My apologies. I gave some other biblical metaphors for the same state. Does that help?

 

[rogerg]

So, what exactly can these dead people not do in your view?

They are unable to comprehend, nor to truly perceive that spiritual truth is true or real. They remain in total spiritual darkness - unable to respond to spiritual stimuli, as a physically dead person can't respond to
physical stimuli. They are as dead spiritually as a physically dead person is physically dead.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Jhn 1:4-5 KJV]
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

rogerg, I can give this more thought. Would you want me to do so?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They are unable to comprehend, nor to truly perceive that spiritual truth is true or real. They remain in total spiritual darkness - unable to respond to spiritual stimuli, as a physically dead person can't respond to
physical stimuli. They are as dead spiritually as a physically dead person is physically dead.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Jhn 1:4-5 KJV]
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It seems to me that they don’t understand which is mainly a mental state. Your position is they can’t. There are biblical examples of they WONT, which isn’t the same and is where your metaphor breaks down. Some refuse the light. For those, “dead” doesn’t work. Metaphors have limited application.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

rogerg, I need to attend to some matter now. Talk again tomorrow.