Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

It seems to me that they don’t understand which is mainly a mental state. Your position is they can’t. There are biblical examples of they WONT, which isn’t the same and is where your metaphor breaks down. Some refuse the light. For those, “dead” doesn’t work. Metaphors have limited application.

All stems from the same cause - that they are dead spiritually. They must be given spiritual life first

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don’t see that and men aren’t responsible for God feeling unjustly spoken of

Most people don't see how they accused him of speaking against the Father, which is exactly the sin they were committing against the Son.

although defending Him is in those who love Him.

And those who defend him love others, because that's what he wanted.

He does but it’s better to say the truth about the charges against Jesus. It was blasphemy.

Blasphemy is speaking against who Someone really is.

For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together, Saying, God hath forsaken him Psa.71:10-11

Blasphemy of the Father ans Son.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't think we are going to be able to reconcile our different points of view with this,
and we could continue with it ad infinitum, with it expanding and becoming more and more vague.

There's nothing to expand and the scripture I cited isn't vague.
You asked if people who never heard of Jesus can be saved and don't like the answer because it doesn't fit the Jesus in the box mentality of Calvanism.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Answer me this: You said of me this"And what you're really saying is, the sacrifice of our Lord isn't enough to cause faith in him."

So do you believe everyone Christ died for , His death will cause them to have in Him ? Yes or No

No. Now here's your question; Why would God allow sinners into Heaven, who didn't repent of abusing his Son?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Most people don't see how they accused him of speaking against the Father, which is exactly the sin they were committing against the Son.

No one accused Him of speaking against the Father. They accused him of calling himself the Son of God.

And those who defend him love others, because that's what he wanted.

True but we don’t defend him often.

Blasphemy is speaking against who Someone really is.

Then a number of christian’s are blasphemers. The Blasphemy Jesus did is claiming godhood for himself.

For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together, Saying, God hath forsaken him Psa.71:10-11

Blasphemy of the Father ans Son.

Ok, I agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All stems from the same cause - that they are dead spiritually. They must be given spiritual life first

That’s using the metaphor beyond its meaning. The Bible says they are blind too. The verse you quote says they don’t comprehend which is understand. This also matches what we see in life. Doesn’t say they cannot. Some refuse. The “dead” metaphor breaks down then. The parable of the seeds also doesn’t fit the “dead” metaphor.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They are unable to comprehend, nor to truly perceive that spiritual truth is true or real. They remain in total spiritual darkness - unable to respond to spiritual stimuli, as a physically dead person can't respond to
physical stimuli. They are as dead spiritually as a physically dead person is physically dead.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

There are believers who have little to no spiritual discernment. They turn it off. They aren’t dead either.

[Jhn 1:4-5 KJV]
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Notice no comprehension, not dead.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthy

That’s using the metaphor beyond its meaning.

Oh no, its accepting the Truth, men naturally are dead spiritually

The Bible says they are blind too.

Correct, spiritually blind

The verse you quote says they don’t comprehend which is understand

We dont spiritually Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Doesn’t say they cannot.

It means we cannot, and in 1 Cor 2:14 it says cannot

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That word know is the greek word ginōskō :

to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of

Jesus uses the same word here Jn 8:43

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Some refuse.

Thats a symptom of cannot and being dead

The “dead” metaphor breaks down then.

No it doesnt, its actually confirmed

The parable of the seeds also doesn’t fit the “dead” metaphor.

Yes it most certainly does, you just dont see it

 

[brightfame52]

No. Now here's your question; Why would God allow sinners into Heaven, who didn't repent of abusing his Son?

So then if you say no, why did you unjustly criticize and misrepresent me as believing that it doesnt, when in fact you dont believe that yourself. Please explain that now sir

 

[brightfame52]

dorthy

Notice no comprehension, not dead.

Same thing, no spiritual comprehension comes from not having spiritual life, not having spiritual life comes from being spiritually dead.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthy

Where is “saved for heaven” in there? Notice he says merely “quicken” not “saved.” He quickens those who don’t become saved too

When God quickens thats the same as saving, because Hes giving one life from the dead, He saves from spiritual death Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thus being saved and quickened correspond.

In fact, the quickening here in this context occurred when Gods elect were actually raised from the dead together with Christ, thats why Paul uses the plural pronoun US, that being the case, each quickened person with Christ, during their lifetime will be quickened as an individual from Spiritual death validating that they were already quickened together with Christ when He was raised from the dead.

 

[rogerg]

That’s using the metaphor beyond its meaning. The Bible says they are blind too. The verse you quote says they don’t comprehend which is understand. This also matches what we see in life. Doesn’t say they cannot. Some refuse. The “dead” metaphor breaks down then. The parable of the seeds also doesn’t fit the “dead” metaphor.

No, it doesn't break down - it is cause and effect. Of the things you mentioned, the unifying factor central to them is that the person is dead spiritually; that is, in being dead one can't see the spiritual, hear the spiritual, comprehend the spiritual, etc, or do any of the things that someone spiritually alive would/can do - all intersect upon that. Regardless of how a particular event may have been framed in the Bible, whether it is obvious or not, the actions of its participants were governed by whether or not they had been made alive spiritually.
I that think what you aren't seeing is that regardless of the form the events may have taken (parables, etc), yet from/by them, those involved should from it, have come to the realization that Christ is the Saviour. By the fact that some didn't and couldn't, means they were not spiritually alive in order for them to be able to comprehend that.
The purpose of all of scripture was to demonstrate Christ as the sole Saviour in all ways.

[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

See brightfam52's reply he answered you correctly.

 

[rogerg]

There are believers who have little to no spiritual discernment. They turn it off. They aren’t dead either.

If anyone has a true and abiding faith in Christ as Saviour, they have been made alive spiritually.
God did not give spiritual gifts equally or of the same type, to everyone.

[Rom 12:5-6 KJV]
5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

Notice no comprehension, not dead.

Don't follow your point. They could not comprehend the light. That light is Christ.
To have no spiritual comprehension means being dead - the dead have no comprehension :
they are oblivious.

 

[rogerg]

There's nothing to expand and the scripture I cited isn't vague.
You asked if people who never heard of Jesus can be saved and don't like the answer because it doesn't fit the Jesus in the box mentality of Calvanism.

It is you who said that a person's faith in Christ comes from, and by, themselves and their intellect, remember? I said if that's true, then how can they get that faith if they've never heard of Him and being that their faith is from themselves? I say just the opposite of your position - that salvation is a gift solely of God given to some, from which is faith given to them, and it cannot be self-generated at all by anyone. If you're now saying that it is through some ability given by God, then it is not of themselves, is it? And you're tending to agree with my position and moving away from yours. You can't have it both ways.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

No, it doesn't break down - it is cause and effect. Of the things you mentioned, the unifying factor central to them is that the person is dead spiritually; that is, in being dead one can't see the spiritual, hear the spiritual, comprehend the spiritual, etc, or do any of the things that someone spiritually alive would/can do

Exactly, being spiritually dead doesnt mean one is physically or naturally dead. Many are very much Physically and naturally alive while yet being Spiritually dead, Jesus said of some who were very much functioning physically this Matt 8:20-22

20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Certainly He doesnt mean a zombie corpse is to go bury a dead body. He meant spiritually dead.

Paul wrote that certain widows are dead while they yet live physically and naturally 1 Tim 5:5-6

5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

I that think what you aren't seeing is that regardless of the form the events may have taken (parables, etc), yet from/by them, those involved should from it, have come to the realization that Christ is the Saviour. By the fact that some didn't and couldn't, means they were not spiritually alive in order for them to be able to comprehend that.

Yes and thats a mistaken notion, the only way a person could know that Jesus was the True Messiah, Christ, sent of God, and believe the Truth about Him, is if they were born of the Spirit and have the witness of the Spirit in them to verify 1 Jn 5:10

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The Holy Spirits witness in us is crucial in order to believe the record God gives of His Son through the Gospel

Earlier in 1 Jn 5:1 John said those believing on the Son had been born of God

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Thats imperative because many were preaching a different Jesus 1 Jn 4:1-4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Notice he wrote " Ye are of God" doesnt that agree with what Jesus said in Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So in order to believe the True record of Jesus Christ one must have the witness of the Spirit in them by the being born of God.

 

[rogerg]

So in order to believe the True record of Jesus Christ one must have the witness of the Spirit in them by the being born of God.

Great post, brightfame52 - thanks.

 

[Randy]

Not sure what you think you have "shown", but the wicked, meaning the non-elect, are removed from it. The elect can never be.

Both are in that book. Those who remain faithful to Jesus by keeping His commands wouldn't be removed from that book. Those faithful have Jesus's assurance that He would never blot them out of His book.

So those who remain in Christ will be saved and their names would still be written in heaven.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

Jesus stated those who do listen and learn from the Father come to Him.

That would be the regenerate

 

[brightfame52]

Both are in that book. Those who remain faithful to Jesus by keeping His commands wouldn't be removed from that book. Those faithful have Jesus's assurance that He would never blot them out of His book.

So those who remain in Christ will be saved and their names would still be written in heaven.

Everyones name wasnt written in the Lambs book of life Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[rogerg]

Both are in that book. Those who remain faithful to Jesus by keeping His commands wouldn't be removed from that book. Those faithful have Jesus's assurance that He would never blot them out of His book.

So those who remain in Christ will be saved and their names would still be written in heaven.

Because they were written into the book from the foundation of the world, is WHY they are faithful. It is only by Christ, not of ourselves.


[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[Rom 1:4-5 KJV]
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: