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Is believing/faith a work ?

jlb

Do you believe Christians who lie, or are sexually immoral are exempt from this warning?

Yes if they believers, Christ died for them, and put away all their sins before God, past, present and future, they are exempt from any punishment for their sins. In fact God doesn't impute, charge them with their sins, and no matter what, they are holy, blameless before Him because He sees them in Christ, washed in His Blood and clothed with His Righteousness. Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

And they are going to sin, sometimes some very serious, grevious sins, but God will not impute sin to them, they are blessed like that.

And its a world full of people He blessed like that 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
Those are the liars who lie about Christ and God's plan of salvation - so as to profess, and believe in, another
gospel
They are simply people Christ didnt die for. Before God had mercy on me Roger, I preached a false gospel conditioned on man. I once preached at a church and told people if they don't get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, citing Acts 2:38 they aren't saved. But God had mercy on me, and gave me repentance from that horrible wickedness. And so He will with any that are His and Christ died for and rescued them from the lies and deceptions of the devil.
 
They are simply people Christ didnt die for. Before God had mercy on me Roger, I preached a false gospel conditioned on man. I once preached at a church and told people if they don't get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, citing Acts 2:38 they aren't saved. But God had mercy on me, and gave me repentance from that horrible wickedness. And so He will with any that are His and Christ died for and rescued them from the lies and deceptions of the devil.

That is true brightfame52, and as was I, but maybe in somewhat different ways, nevertheless, while they profess such, they are liars, etc. However, beyond question, if they are so chosen, through God's mercy and grace, they will change.
 
Dorothy & wondering,

As I'm sure you've already assumed, I have absolutely no intention of going through each of the points of your
posts (above) refuting every one of them. However, I can say that it all comes down to this: I understand/believe that Jesus Christ is the sole Saviour sent by the Father from/by whom alone is salvation, and you do not. It's just a simple as that. Having said that, should I happen to notice any points in your posts that I find interesting, I will as time
permits, reply to them individually.
This is very disappointing. I’ve held you in high esteem both for your character and intelligence. There’s a real fondness in my heart for you Roger and so I will let the discussion sleep out of desire not to wound that interaction further and out of respect for your intelligence and character. In my very personal view, you are deserving of a better theology. Until we meet again…
 
That is true brightfame52, and as was I, but maybe in somewhat different ways, nevertheless, while they profess such, they are liars, etc. However, beyond question, if they are so chosen, through God's mercy and grace, they will change.
Correct, if they belong to Christ they will be granted repentance unto the acknowledging of the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We can recover ourselves only if God gives us repentance, besides that, we are under the captivity of the devil at his will, so men have not a freewill in this matter !
 
DM

God becomes a man's spiritual father when they turn from their sin, repent and ask forgiveness and surrender their lives to Him. It is not a matter of being lucky.

False, the children of God have always been the Children of God, even when they are spiritually dead in sin, So He out of His Great Love for them, He gives them life or quickens them, He gives them faith and repentance, and by that they are manifested as the Children of God, while others who arent His children, will remain under the control of the devil which manifests them as the children of the devil 1 Jn 3:10

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The word manifest is the greek word phaneros:
  1. apparent, manifest, evident, known
  2. manifest i.e to be plainly recognised or known

Being manifested didnt cause them to be children of the devil, but caused it to apparent or evident. We are born into this world either a Spiritually dead child of God like the prodigal son or a spiritually dead child of the devil.
 
How about kind David? Was he saved even being sexually immoral?
Everyone who is saved have had their sin forgiven - all of them. Otherwise, salvation
is from our works. So, either you don't understand Christ, or you don't believe in Him, or both.
We had this discussion before, and I'm not interested in going through it again now.
Amen. And because the saved are so eternally secured in the Grace of God, its by no means a free license to live in sin unrepented of, because God will chasten His wayward child, ask King David, and matters can be quite grevious. Heb 12:5-11

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

But nevertheless God will never withdawl His Mercy from them for Christs sake Ps 89:29-33

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
 
Secondly you created a private interpretation out of that verse by adding your words to it.

Actually, I was waiting for you to say that, but no, I didn't. I checked another verse beforehand to confirm.
So, you are the one who didn't follow the admonition, not me.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 
Dorothy & wondering,

As I'm sure you've already assumed, I have absolutely no intention of going through each of the points of your
posts (above) refuting every one of them. However, I can say that it all comes down to this: I understand/believe that Jesus Christ is the sole Saviour sent by the Father from/by whom alone is salvation, and you do not. It's just a simple as that. Having said that, should I happen to notice any points in your posts that I find interesting, I will as time
permits, reply to them individually.
First of all, if you don't tag a member he will not see your post to him.
I came across the above by mistake.
Use the @ symbol immediately followed by the name of the member.

Second of all, it's easy for you to only answer the posts that you are able to answer.

Instead of telling me what I believe, why don't you just stick to my posts and answer them as I've answered yours?

It's so disappointing to me that you don't find my posts interesting.
You show many conflicts within the NT.
Is it not interesting to you that the NT is chock full of conflicts and misinformation?

If God COMMANDS us to do something,
and you think we are unable to do what He commands...
THEN WHY IS GOD COMMANDING IT??

Sounds like a very interesting question to me.
But, alas, it has no answer and as John McCarthur has stated:
IT IS A MYSTERY.

So many mysteries in the Calvinist paradigm.
So many unanswered questions.

Who do you think could be a savior besides Jesus?
You have some person in mind?
Or you think because God COMMANDS us to obey Him and share in our salvation that makes US a savior?

What an unbiblical idea.
Put forth by some that think they're better than every other Christian because they can accept a God that other Christians cannot.

Come on Roger, be brave. Answer Wondering's posts.
Or are you going to join the ranks of Brightfame who also refuses to reply to me.

Guess my posts are just too difficult for you guys.
Funny, I can answer all of yours.
:thinking
 
And you obviously don't understand what Rev 21.8 "plainly says" because you didn't/don't
follow God's rules of interpretation.
How could JLB possibly know God's rules of interpretation??
Only YOU know what those rules could be.

The rest of us Christians are just barely getting by.
Funny how the reformed are over in a corner all by themselves with no other denomination to agree with them.

Ask yourself why sometime.
Ask yourself why PREDESTINATION WAS REFUSED and never even CONSIDERED by Christianity until the year 1,500AD.

You should pay attention to JLB, he knows the bible as well as some theologians.
And interprets it perfectly, as God would also want YOU to do.
 
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Second of all, it's easy for you to only answer the posts that you are able to answer.

Instead of telling me what I believe, why don't you just stick to my posts and answer them as I've answered yours?
Of course - I only answer posts that I am able to answer, how can I answer posts that I can't answer? But that
doesn't mean every post I don't answer is because I can't answer it.
As I recall, you asked me to reconcile two verses and that's what I did.
Do you know the Bible so well and precisely that you have a 100% understanding of it, so you
can answer all questions? If so, then why are you asking me?

It's so disappointing to me that you don't find my posts interesting.
You show many conflicts within the NT.
The problem is, and I've told you this before, that your posts go on forever. Normally when someone asks a question
they have the courtesy to keep it to a minimum. You for some reason seem to be unable to do that. That's fine
if you insist on it, but I'd rather not spend hours going through and answering each and every one of them. You told me at one point that you would stop doing that.
We've been through all of your disagreements many times before, and I'm sure you won't change your POV now should we attempt go through them again another time- doing so would be a waste of both of our time and effort, and therefore, be worthless. In fact, I can't imagine why you keep asking me the same questions since you fundamentally disagree with my understanding and are willing to comprehend what I've been saying.

Is it not interesting to you that the NT is chock full of conflicts and misinformation?
It is so not "chock full of conflicts and misinformation". Apparently, you just don't know how to read and interpret it, nor do you have faith in it, nor are you willing to expend the effort necessary for understanding. The Bible in-total was written by God as a fully integrated book, but it takes time, patience, desire, and determination to go through it to the extent necessary. Even at that, in my opinion, unless the reader is of the elect, they probably will never "get" it because they are of "natural man"

If God COMMANDS us to do something,
and you think we are unable to do what He commands...
THEN WHY IS GOD COMMANDING IT??
God isn't commanding anyone to do anything, His command is to NOT to do anything - not to work for salvation in any form. Salvation is a gift from God. Nothing we can do can bring it about - He gives it to whomever He has so chosen for it. All of the attributes of those saved, to include repentance unto Christ, are from/by salvation, not to salvation. When someone is truly able to trust completely in Christ's completed work with confidence and joy, that is an indication in my opinion, that salvation has been given to them. However, it is not God's intention that everyone receive it.
Regarding salvation, unsaved man finds God's demand not to work, reprehensible, and impossible to believe true, nor to be trusted. But that they have that belief, is neither God's fault nor responsibility. Rather, it was of satan, Adam and Eve, not of God. Nevertheless, God had/has the divine right and privilege to dispense salvation to whomever He so chooses it being solely and completely as a gift to them-- but no one has a human birthright to it. Just the opposite in fact, our birthright is to NOT have it - that anyone receives it, is purely and solely of God's mercy and grace - no one is, nor can be, deserving of it.

Who do you think could be a savior besides Jesus?
You have some person in mind?
Or you think because God COMMANDS us to obey Him and share in our salvation that makes US a savior?
Only Christ is the Saviour, and in order for Him to have been given the title of Saviour, He must have accomplished
everything, everything, for salvation with no exceptions, and with nothing remaining to be done.
Should it be that any part of it remain for us, then He couldn't be the Saviour, and if we were to do it, then that would make us our own saviour because there can only be one Saviour. How could it be otherwise?

What an unbiblical idea.
Put forth by some that think they're better than every other Christian because they can accept a God that other Christians cannot.

Neither Brightfame nor I think that we are any better than anyone else because it is by Christ, not of ourselves. Just the opposite, we, in understanding salvation, realize that we are all undeserving sinners - with no one
being any better than anyone else: in God's eyes, mankind is a fallen people.


So many mysteries in the Calvinist paradigm.
So many unanswered questions.
If you think that true, then it is because you lack understanding.
There are no mysteries and very few unanswered questions.
What we believe is the easiest and simplest of all regarding salvation, and can be
understood and summed up in only two words: Jesus Christ. He is the foundation and
apex of our belief. Everything starts from, and ends with, Him - it is just as simple as that - no more,
no less. If you cannot not understand that you have not found the foundation to the find true single overarching, spiritual message of the Bible.

[Heb 10:7-9 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
How could @JLB possibly know God's rules of interpretation??
Only YOU know what those rules could be.
Waat? I posted several of them. They're all found in/from the Bible- just like everything I post. There are others, but all that anyone needs to do to find them, is to look at and read the Bible - they're not kept secret.
Ask yourself why sometime.
Ask yourself why PREDESTINATION WAS REFUSED and never even CONSIDERED by Christianity until the year 1,500AD.

You should pay attention to JLB, he knows the bible as well as some theologians.
And interprets it perfectly, as God would also want YOU to do.

Right, sometime I will do that.

Regarding JLB, that's according to you. Personally, it seems to me that he's totally missed the Bible's primary message.
 
Yes, those whose names that are not written in the Lambs book of life will worship the beast, that of course is not the point of our discussion.

What I am discussing is the saints, those who are saved, and are written in the Lambs book of life.


Do you believe a saint, a person who is saved and has there name written in the Lambs book of life, can take the mark of the beast and somehow not suffer the fate of the warning from the angel?


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


Also notice that being in the Lambs book of life does not exempt us from being blotted out of His book.

  • Words of Christ in red —

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5




JLB
Of course I think the mark of that beast is past, but this post is nevertheless very good.

Interesting that those who names are blotted out of the Book of life prepared before the foundation of the world are those who do not obey the commands of Jesus.

One has to wonder how thick the black marking pen is for those who insist no lack of obeying his commands (works) will affect their names being in the book.
 
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I don't follow your point. Those of the elect will not harden their hearts. They will
read, perceive and follow all biblical admonitions including that one - no one immediately after
becoming born-again wakes up knowing all doctrine, and admonitions until
being exposed to them in the Bible. However, they conform and follow them, realizing
the doing of them is a byproduct (or from) of salvation, not unto salvation, and that is the important part.
So you think the writer has no point as it doesn't matter?
 
So you think the writer has no point as it doesn't matter?
The point was to inform the elect - to give them wisdom and understanding, which they
comprehend, take to heart, and follow as a result of becoming saved and of a renewed mind -
it is not of performing works to become saved. "make every effort to enter that rest": to hasten in ceasing from works.
The following of that will find no place with the unsaved because at their most fundamental level,
their belief/trust is in their works for salvation, not in Christ's works.

"10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."
 
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The point was to inform the elect - to give them wisdom and understanding, which they
comprehend, take to heart, and follow as a result of becoming saved and of a renewed mind -
it is not of performing works to become saved. "make every effort to enter that rest": to hasten in ceasing from works.
The following of that will find no place with the unsaved because at their most fundamental level,
their belief/trust is in their works for salvation, not in Christ's works.

"10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."
The point was to not to harden your hearts as the Israelite's did in the past. A point to ALL.

See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
 
The point was to not to harden your hearts as the Israelite's did in the past. A point to ALL.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 
And you obviously don't understand what Rev 21.8 "plainly says" because you didn't/don't
follow God's rules of interpretation.

Here is what Revelation 21:8 plainly says --

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire

Do you believe Christians are somehow not included in the word ALL?






JLB
 
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