Is believing/faith a work ?

[GodsGrace]

Of course - I only answer posts that I am able to answer, how can I answer posts that I can't answer? But that
doesn't mean every post I don't answer is because I can't answer it.
As I recall, you asked me to reconcile two verses and that's what I did.
Do you know the Bible so well and precisely that you have a 100% understanding of it, so you
can answer all questions? If so, then why are you asking me?

For someone that doesn't like long posts, you sure did post a lot.
This is a rather personal post to which I would not normally reply, but I think it's important that it be done here and not by PM.

You did not reconcile the two verses in question. Maybe you think you did.
I ask you questions so you could THINK about your answers.
I'm not asking you because I need to know the answer from you.
You might have noticed that I'm not reformed in my theology...why would I ask you anything?
And yes, I can answer all questions you would throw my way.
Know why?
Because I take the bible at its word.
I exegete verses....
I don't eisegete them.
I go to the NT to learn...not to try to make verses fit my theology.
(which is what the reformed do)

The problem is, and I've told you this before, that your posts go on forever. Normally when someone asks a question
they have the courtesy to keep it to a minimum. You for some reason seem to be unable to do that. That's fine
if you insist on it, but I'd rather not spend hours going through and answering each and every one of them. You told me at one point that you would stop doing that.

You'll find that I asked you ONE question.
I posted 2 verses and asked you to reconcile them.
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT RECONCILE THEM.
In your attempt to do so, perhaps you would have found that there is a conflict between the 2 verses by using YOUR theology.

We've been through all of your disagreements many times before, and I'm sure you won't change your POV now should we attempt go through them again another time- doing so would be a waste of both of our time and effort, and therefore, be worthless. In fact, I can't imagine why you keep asking me the same questions since you fundamentally disagree with my understanding and are willing to comprehend what I've been saying.

You don't seem to have a problem posting to other members.
I just wonder why. You seem to have a problem with me and another member.

You like posting to JLB which is very interesting since he and I agree on everything written in scripture.
I can't think of one doctrine upon which we would disagree.

Of course, you have the right to post to whomever you will.
WHOMEVER.
Just like John 3:16
WHOMEVER believes will be saved.
And then we're told all throughout the NT HOW we come to believe.
And it isn't God doing the choosing.
But I guess this is an uninteresting topic for you.

It is so not "chock full of conflicts and misinformation". Apparently, you just don't know how to read and interpret it, nor do you have faith in it, nor are you willing to expend the effort necessary for understanding.

The above is so incredibly funny and personal that I'm not even going to answer it.
You must be inside my mind and just know everything about me.

Just keep in mind that it's the rest of Christianity that does not agree with the reformed faith...
Not the other way around. Seems like it might be the reformed that have changed the meaning of the entire New Testament....according to John Calvin.

The Bible in-total was written by God as a fully integrated book, but it takes time, patience, desire, and determination to go through it to the extent necessary. Even at that, in my opinion, unless the reader is of the elect, they probably will never "get" it because they are of "natural man"

Explain how a person becomes elect.
Give me the verses in the NT that prove your theology.

God isn't commanding anyone to do anything, His command is to NOT to do anything

God's command is NOT to do anything?
Please provide some verses.

I seem to remember that Jesus told us we are to do a great many things.

- not to work for salvation in any form. Salvation is a gift from God. Nothing we can do can bring it about - He gives it to whomever He has so chosen for it.

Please provide some verses that prove what you believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

rogerg page 2

All of the attributes of those saved, to include repentance unto Christ, are from/by salvation, not to salvation. When someone is truly able to trust completely in Christ's completed work with confidence and joy, that is an indication in my opinion, that salvation has been given to them. However, it is not God's intention that everyone receive it.

It is not God's intention that everyone receive salvation?
Then what do these verses mean??

John 3:16
16“For this is how God loved the world: He gaveg his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
18“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

Jesus is saying the above.
1. God loved the world.
2. He gave His one and only Son.
3. EVERYONE who believes in Him will not perish. (this is prescrptive, not descriptive)
4. God sent His Son to save the world through Him. Not to save the elect. But anyone who believes in Jesus.
5. AND WE KNOW WHAT THE JUDGEMENT WILL BE BASED ON. It does not state that those chosen by God will be saved. It states that judgement will be based on the fact that God's light came into the world, and those who do evil are afraid of the light. But those WHO DO RIGHT come to the light.
They COME TO THE LIGHT.
The action is on the person going toward the light.

Regarding salvation, unsaved man finds God's demand not to work, reprehensible, and impossible to believe true, nor to be trusted. But that they have that belief, is neither God's fault nor responsibility. Rather, it was of satan, Adam and Eve, not of God. Nevertheless, God had/has the divine right and privilege to dispense salvation to whomever He so chooses it being solely and completely as a gift to them-- but no one has a human birthright to it. Just the opposite in fact, our birthright is to NOT have it - that anyone receives it, is purely and solely of God's mercy and grace - no one is, nor can be, deserving of it.

Yes. Quite a God you worship.
He created human beings so He could play Russian Roulette and kill some off by sending them to hell.

As to work...what do the following mean?:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

1 Peter 2:12
Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

Matthew 6:1-
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ...

James 2: 14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.



And many, many more.
Could you provide a few verse that state we are not to do good works because it would mean we are not saved?

Only Christ is the Saviour, and in order for Him to have been given the title of Saviour, He must have accomplished
everything, everything, for salvation with no exceptions, and with nothing remaining to be done.
Should it be that any part of it remain for us, then He couldn't be the Saviour, and if we were to do it, then that would make us our own saviour because there can only be one Saviour. How could it be otherwise?

Interesting concept taking into consideration the above verses.

I'd say there's a lot God EXPECTS us to do.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm just answering your long post.

If you care to reply, which is the courteous thing to do,
it should be only regarding the questions I'm asking you to supply verses for.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Waat? I posted several of them. They're all found in/from the Bible- just like everything I post. There are others, but all that anyone needs to do to find them, is to look at and read the Bible - they're not kept secret.


Right, sometime I will do that.

Regarding JLB, that's according to you. Personally, it seems to me that he's totally missed the Bible's primary message.

Maybe YOU have missed the bible's primary message?
Remember that every other Christian denomination does NOT agree with the reformed faith.

There must surely be a reason for this.

 

[rogerg]

Maybe YOU have missed the bible's primary message?

Interesting diatribe (actually not that interesting), wondering. Of course, you know there is no way I will
waste any more of my time and effort in answering you. As usual, you miss, and not only miss, but hate the
Bible's most fundamental doctrine - that Jesus Christ alone is Saviour. I know my hope springs eternal, but should
you ever be able to comprehend what Saviour means, post me and maybe we can discuss then.

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

Brightfame said --

Correct all the lies true believers have spoken, are speaking, or will speak, have been blotted out by Christ, and they aren't charged to them. Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In fact all their sins were blotted out by Christ before they became believers, and is why they were given the Gift of faith to become believers.

Only those who believe are forgiven their sins.

That I stated, but you failed to show where I said this:

" that someone becomes a true believer before they believe"

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, you're saying you don't believe that Christ is the Saviour?

Why do you jump to that personal attack just because I don’t agree with your theology?

Which means, you're not a Christian? Really?

Because Im not a Calvinist?

You can't have it both ways: He either is the Saviour, in which case He saves completely - to
the uttermost, or, He is not, in which case we must save ourselves completely to the uttermost.

Let’s look at the scripture YOU THINK says this…

By your post, I can see that you perceive your role is of judge, jury and executioner but
be careful that you don't end up convicting yourself.

The Bereans were counted more noble because they studied the scripture to see if what they were told was true. More noble, not less as you think studying the scripture to see if your theology is true deems one to be.

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Do you see the REQUIREMENT on our part? He is able (his part) but we MUST come to God (through Jesus, of course.) Coming to God is RELATIONSHIP pure. It is NOT believing a theology nor is it believing He can save. That is not enough according to this verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you jump to that personal attack just because I don’t agree with your theology?

Because Im not a Calvinist?

Let’s look at the scripture YOU THINK says this…

The Bereans were counted more noble because they studied the scripture to see if what they were told was true. More noble, not less as you think studying the scripture to see if your theology is true deems one to be.

Do you see the REQUIREMENT on our part? He is able (his part) but we MUST come to God (through Jesus, of course.) Coming to God is RELATIONSHIP pure. It is NOT believing a theology nor is it believing He can save. That is not enough according to this verse.

Very disturbing to think that some think you must DO NOTHING in order to be saved.
If a person FOLLOWS THE TEACHINGS of JESUS then, somehow, he is NOT saved.

What a dangerous doctrine!!

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you're saying you don't believe that Christ is the Saviour? Which means, you're not a Christian? Really?
You can't have it both ways: He either is the Saviour, in which case He saves completely - to
the uttermost, or, He is not, in which case we must save ourselves completely to the uttermost.
By your post, I can see that you perceive your role is of judge, jury and executioner but
be careful that you don't end up convicting yourself.

[Heb 10:29 KJV]
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Where do your posted verses state we are TO DO NOTHING???

AND...

It states those that GO TO HIM He will save.
Again, the action is on the person to GO to God.

Go is an action word.

God does Not choose who will be saved,
But HOW.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you jump to that personal attack just because I don’t agree with your theology?

Because Im not a Calvinist?

Let’s look at the scripture YOU THINK says this…

The Bereans were counted more noble because they studied the scripture to see if what they were told was true. More noble, not less as you think studying the scripture to see if your theology is true deems one to be.

Do you see the REQUIREMENT on our part? He is able (his part) but we MUST come to God (through Jesus, of course.) Coming to God is RELATIONSHIP pure. It is NOT believing a theology nor is it believing He can save. That is not enough according to this verse.

Personal attacks happen when the other poster has no reasonable reply.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Personal attacks happen when the other poster has no reasonable reply.

True. It is the easiest.

 

[brightfame52]

dorothyM

Do you see the REQUIREMENT on our part? He is able (his part) but we MUST come to God (through Jesus, of course.)

Correct, its not a requirement, they are coming to God by means of Christ, Christ brings them to God for whom He died. 1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

So Christ brings them to God, thats why they come. When people come to the True God, Jesus Christ should receive the all the Credit !

Also part of their coming to God in Heb 7:25 is the fact that Christ, who died for them, is risen again and is making intercession for them specifically!

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So I think you added the requirement thing, its not there !

 

[Randy]

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree God teaches. Not all listen. In regard to those that don't listen the fault is found in their hearts as is seen in the judgment in Rev. Many in the grave regret the choices "they", not God, made while in the life of the flesh. God seeks and knows who will listen. He knows the heart of all. His word reaches all. All was made plain after Jesus had risen. Nothing was "kept" hidden. With that light comes accountability to all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree God teaches. Not all listen. In regard to those that don't listen the fault is found in their hearts as is seen in the judgment in Rev. Many in the grave regret the choices "they", not God, made while in the life of the flesh. God seeks and knows who will listen. He knows the heart of all. His word reaches all. All was made plain after Jesus had risen. Nothing was "kept" hidden. With that light comes accountability to all.

Great post.

 

[rogerg]

I agree God teaches. Not all listen.

"neither can he know them"

 

[rogerg]

Why do you jump to that personal attack just because I don’t agree with your theology?

Why do you think it was an attack? It was a logical conclusion based upon your statement.
If you have to add to what Jesus did to obtain salvation, then He isn't the Saviour - it is all or nothing.

Do you see the REQUIREMENT on our part? He is able (his part) but we MUST come to God (through Jesus, of course.) Coming to God is RELATIONSHIP pure. It is NOT believing a theology nor is it believing He can save. That is not enough according to this verse.

If it is through Jesus, then it is not through you. If it is through you, through Jesus, then it is through you, not
Jesus. Coming to God by Jesus, means that Jesus does it, not by us but by Jesus
Just believing is not enough, and I never said it was. I said only God saves, we don't -
we can contribute nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

I agree God teaches. Not all listen

Then God didnt teach them

When God teaches, they learn, credit to God who gives the ear to hear and heart to learn Jn 6:45

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

See that word SHALL ? Thats a Guarantee, its Gods Ability at stake

Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

In my opinion one should never say God teaches someone but they dont listen, frankly its a contradiction.

 

[rogerg]

randy



Then God didnt teach them

When God teaches, they learn, credit to God who gives the ear to hear and heart to learn Jn 6:45

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

See that word SHALL ? Thats a Guarantee, its Gods Ability at stake

Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

In my opinion one should never say God teaches someone but they dont listen, frankly its a contradiction.

Yes brightfame52, and the verse prior to the one randy is referencing informs of exactly that. I probably should have
included it in my original post too, but never considered it possible that he would come to the interpretation
that he did.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Coming to God by Jesus, means that Jesus does it, not by us but by Jesus

Exactly, and its plainly stated, them that come to God by Him. The word by Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Its the greek prep dia means:

on account of, because of

Its all because of Him, on His account. His Death and His Intercession !

 

[brightfame52]

Yes brightfame52, and the verse prior to the one randy is referencing informs of exactly that. I probably should have
included it in my original post too, but never considered it possible that he would come to the interpretation
that he did.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Right, those whom God teaches are not the natural man, but the born again. The drawing in Jn 6:44 is nothing short of the New Birth and effectual irresistible call.

 

[JLB]

that Jesus Christ alone is Saviour.

Yes He is.

I hope you learn to obey Him, because He alone has the words of eternal life.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4