Is believing/faith a work ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Amen, Jesus called into question that God was the Father of some Jn 8:42,44

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

And then went on to tell them who their father really is

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Notice also He said the lust of your father the devil ye will do ! They have no choice, Jesus said they will do it ! I dont believe He desires to save these people !

Now why does Jesus call them the sons of the Devil? Is it because they had no choice and their names were not written in the book before the foundation of the world? No, he clearly says they are the sons of Satan because the "lusts of your father ye will do." This you see. But you think therefore they had no choice, but the scriptures speaks extensively that lusts we choose to do and need to resist. There isn't a single scripture that says we have no choice because our names are not written there. What is more, there was Paul, who was doing as they did, murdering the innocent who repented. The scripture also says "not a few" of these jewish leaders repented and became believers. (The repentance is assumed as it was required to be a believer back then.)

It is what we choose to do with our bodies, minds, hands and mouth that determines who our "father" is. And do not make the mistake of thinking that because Jesus uses the metaphor "father" that all the attributes of fatherhood are also there. Jesus is not a screen door or a revolving door even though he said he is a door. God is not igneous, metamorphic or sedimentary because the Bible says he is a "rock."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thank you, Dorothy, and I am of you too.

See brightfame52 post #1410 for further confirmation.

I unignored him and answered his post thus:

Now why does Jesus call them the sons of the Devil? Is it because they had no choice and their names were not written in the book before the foundation of the world? No, he clearly says they are the sons of Satan because the "lusts of your father ye will do." This you see. But you think therefore they had no choice, but the scriptures speaks extensively that lusts we choose to do and need to resist. There isn't a single scripture that says we have no choice because our names are not written there. What is more, there was Paul, who was doing as they did, murdering the innocent who repented. The scripture also says "not a few" of these jewish leaders repented and became believers. (The repentance is assumed as it was required to be a believer back then.)

It is what we choose to do with our bodies, minds, hands and mouth that determines who our "father" is. And do not make the mistake of thinking that because Jesus uses the metaphor "father" that all the attributes of fatherhood are also there. Jesus is not a screen door or a revolving door even though he said he is a door. God is not igneous, metamorphic or sedimentary because the Bible says he is a "rock."

Roger is you are going to take all the attributes of a metaphor and insist that all apply then to the subject, you will need to answer a lot of other questions and the intent of the metaphor will be lost.


God says that it is his desire "that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." No where does he say "only the lucky ones whose names are written down before any choices on their part are made are his. A man becomes his or the Devil's by the choices they make. We will all stand before him in judgement and answer for those choices, good or bad....and that includes the wrong we did and never made right. It would be my desire that more are aware of this and consider their choices here in light of that truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because in order for them to be Jesus's spiritual siblings, that means that God must be their spiritual Father. If God is their spiritual Father, then those who don't fit the criteria Jesus described, aren't God's spiritual children and not privy to the affections and rewards, and gifts given to God's spiritual children. So, God is not unfair as you claimed He would be by favoring only certain ones, instead, He is treating all of His spiritual children equally.

God becomes a man's spiritual father when they turn from their sin, repent and ask forgiveness and surrender their lives to Him. It is not a matter of being lucky.

Now you retreat to him treating all of his spiritual children fairly which is true although He does have favorites but the reasons are those any man can reach. The problem is the Bible says clearly, no metaphor, that God desires all men to be his spiritual children, that is become saved and come to know the truth. All men are his desire. That some refuse is their fault. Your theology flies in the face of the scripture that clearly describes this desire, that all men are saved.

Now there is a whole contingent who believe this as you do. I have come to know a fair number on the net. What the outcome of this theology is, is that none of them understand the ways of God. Not one. I have tested them and no one who embraces this theology understands the ways of God. It was pretty easy, I just asked them questions and the answers were essentially "we do not know."

That is because they believe God does what in anyone else and to anyone else would clearly by very awful cruelty, chooses some and not others for eternal punishment/rewards for no good reason. If a man is willing to embrace this (because it is a very comforting theology assuring the adherent that THEY are bound for heaven no matter how they behave), then God cannot explain his ways to that person. And what is more, if a man wants to understand the living God, one must accept as foundational, that God is good. He is morally good and when we understand Him, that measure of good is no different than our measure of good except it is perfect beyond words to describe...and quite delightful. The people in Solomon's day delighted to observe his wisdom and justice. God's wisdom and justice is greater and will be delightful to see.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And? The Bible is full of warnings to the saints regarding how to live which they take to heart. However, their salvation is not dependent upon anything they may or may not do.

I suppose this theology comes from the idea that salvation is being saved from punishment for sins or hell in the worst case instead of salvation from sin. In that case, sinning does not matter much as one is not going to hell no matter what one does. In the other case, salvation from sin, one cannot choose to engage in the pleasures of sin and be saved from sin at the same time. It is change from being saved from sin to being merely saved from its punishment. Interesting twist.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And? The Bible is full of warnings to the saints regarding how to live which they take to heart. However, their salvation is not dependent upon anything they may or may not do.

I answered this already but a scripture just came to mind. Jesus said that "in that day many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH and betray many." Now falling away from the faith and betraying many is what a man DOES. Falling away from the faith is clearly losing their salvation and it is clearly because of what they did. Jesus also said "but he who endures to the end will be saved" which is a condition and definatley what a person DOES or fails TO DO. Jesus also said "if you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father." This is again clearly based solely on what we do or do not do.

So the statement that salvation is not dependent upon anything that may or may not do is not true according to Jesus. But one can see that none of that fits into the cry "works salvation" position. Not denying Jesus is not a work, but you choose to do it nevertheless. Not falling away from the faith is not a work but you need to not do it. Enduring to the end is not a work but you nevertheless must do so if you are in that situation. Not everything a man chooses is a work but some of those choices have nevertheless serous outcomes.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,
Throughout the Bible, God commands many things of people, such as that of Acts 17:30 to repent from
the trusting of anything besides Christ for salvation. However, as we are informed in 1 Cor 2:14, the natural man is completely incapable of that spiritual understanding. This is because repentance unto Christ comes from the fruit of the Spirit, given only to those born-again. Nevertheless, that command was given by God to warn and to make visible two mutually exclusive results: to those who don't repent unto Christ, eternal death, to those who do, eternal life.

Acts does not state what you've said above...Let's start at the beginning...

Acts 17:22-30
22So Paul, standing before the council,e addressed them as follows: “Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines. And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about.

24“He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn’t live in man-made temples, 25and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need. 26From one manf he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.

27“His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. 28For in him we live and move and exist. As some of yourg own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29And since this is true, we shouldn’t think of God as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone.

30“God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him. 31For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”

The above teaches that
1. nations are able to seek after God. A direct reply to the OP.
They are able to feel their way toward Him and find Him. Action is on the seeker.

2. God COMMANDS everyone everywhere to turn to Him.
The action is on the seeker.
God COMMANDS us to seek Him.

Why would God command us to take an action that is impossible for us to take?
Is God dumb?
Is He a joker?
Is He just fiddling around with us?

Or does He mean what He commands?

 

[GodsGrace]

I answered this already but a scripture just came to mind. Jesus said that "in that day many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH and betray many." Now falling away from the faith and betraying many is what a man DOES. Falling away from the faith is clearly losing their salvation and it is clearly because of what they did. Jesus also said "but he who endures to the end will be saved" which is a condition and definatley what a person DOES or fails TO DO. Jesus also said "if you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father." This is again clearly based solely on what we do or do not do.

So the statement that salvation is not dependent upon anything that may or may not do is not true according to Jesus. But one can see that none of that fits into the cry "works salvation" position. Not denying Jesus is not a work, but you choose to do it nevertheless. Not falling away from the faith is not a work but you need to not do it. Enduring to the end is not a work but you nevertheless must do so if you are in that situation. Not everything a man chooses is a work but some of those choices have nevertheless serous outcomes.

There are many verses that speak about falling away, holding on to our faith, etc.
To believe in the non-bilblical concepts that John Calvin taught, we need to believe in the preservation of the saints.
So....
It would have to follow that if one does not persevere, he was never saved in the first place.

Totally un-biblical because every verse that states we can forgo our salvation must be denied and overlooked.

rogerg and brightfame52 are pretty intelligent fellows. It has always been beyond my understanding how ANYONE could adhere to calvinist teaching.

All it would take would be to learn some church history.
The Christian church, from the beginning, did NOT accept or believe in predestination....it taught belief in God and good works.

Not until Augustine in the 500's did the idea even appear.
And this because he had been a manichean for about 10 years and they believed in some type of predestination.

This was denied by the church although it very much respected him for the ability to debate with what the church believed to be heretics, so they let some of his beliefs slide by.

It cannot be denied that until the 1,500's predestination was not a part of the Christian church.


Some might fear studying...it might take them someplace they do not care to go....
namely, away from their religious paradigm.

 

[rogerg]

Dorothy & wondering,

As I'm sure you've already assumed, I have absolutely no intention of going through each of the points of your
posts (above) refuting every one of them. However, I can say that it all comes down to this: I understand/believe that Jesus Christ is the sole Saviour sent by the Father from/by whom alone is salvation, and you do not. It's just a simple as that. Having said that, should I happen to notice any points in your posts that I find interesting, I will as time
permits, reply to them individually.

 

[JLB]

Only those whose names were not written into the book of life from the foundation of the world will worship him:

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Yes, those whose names that are not written in the Lambs book of life will worship the beast, that of course is not the point of our discussion.

What I am discussing is the saints, those who are saved, and are written in the Lambs book of life.


Do you believe a saint, a person who is saved and has there name written in the Lambs book of life, can take the mark of the beast and somehow not suffer the fate of the warning from the angel?


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12


Also notice that being in the Lambs book of life does not exempt us from being blotted out of His book.

• Words of Christ in red —

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5




JLB

 

[rogerg]

Do you believe a saint, a person who is saved and has there name written in the Lambs book of life, can take the mark of the beast and somehow not suffer the fate of the warning from the angel?

As I said in a prior post to you, I think that someone who has been saved cannot possibly take the mark of the beast.

 

[JLB]

As I said in a prior post to you, I think that someone who has been saved cannot possibly take the mark of the beast.

Please show us from the scripture where its impossible for someone who is a saint to take the mark of the beast, or any other sin for that matter.

Did you know that a Christian or anyone who is a liar, will suffer the same fate as those who take the mark of the beast?


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


Do you believe it is impossible for Christians to lie, or be sexually immoral…

 

[brightfame52]

DM

Now why does Jesus call them the sons of the Devil?

Because they are !

Is it because they had no choice and their names were not written in the book before the foundation of the world?

Its because they are, God made them the children of the devil, and they had no say so in the matter. Paul calls them in Romans 9 the vessels of wrath God made and fitted them for destruction

No, he clearly says they are the sons of Satan because the "lusts of your father ye will do."

Yep they sure will, because they have no choice but to their fathers lust, God constituted them that way with a sin nature.

. But you think therefore they had no choice,

They dont, just like a person had no choice what race they were born as, what sex they are, who their parents are, the children of the devil had no choice in whether or not they are created by God to be the children of the devil

but the scriptures speaks extensively that lusts we choose to do and need to resist.

One cannot resist being what they are. How can a leopard resist being a leopard?

What is more, there was Paul, who was doing as they did, murdering the innocent who repented. The scripture also says "not a few" of these jewish leaders repented and became believers. (The repentance is assumed as it was required to be a believer back then.)

God gives His elect repentance when He makes them a new creation, thats mans only hope

It is what we choose to do with our bodies, minds, hands and mouth that determines who our "father" is.

Oh no, that was Gods choice to make us either a vessel of mercy, or a vessel of wrath, Hes the potter we are the clay. And whatever He made us, we will act accordingly, freely and naturally. Thats why He told them in Jn 8:44 the lusts of your father ye will do, but they had no idea thats what they were doing.

Jesus is not a screen door or a revolving door even though he said he is a door.

He is a door for the Sheep, not the goats, the children of the devil Jn 10:7

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

That door Jesus is, is restricted to the Sheep of His

 

[rogerg]

Please show us from the scripture where its impossible for someone who is a saint to take the mark of the beast, or any other sin for that matter.

I'll try - this is how I understand it:
Everyone who becomes saved have had their names written into the book from the foundation of the world; that is, (and this is important), not only that they were written into it, but that they were written into it from the foundation of the world: only the elect of God have had their names written into it then. So, whenever you read the phrase "from the foundation of the world", it is identifying God's elect: those whom God has chosen to salvation. It is from/because of that writing, that they became saved along being given faith in Christ. Only those not written into the book from the foundation of the world - the unsaved - can have the mark of the beast. If someone is saved, then their name cannot be blotted out. This because it is the book of life. So, when someone of the unsaved dies, their name must be removed from the book of life, because they are no longer alive, and it cannot be written back into it - so it remains blotted out. Therefore, if, as Jesus informs below, those who have been given true faith in Christ that they can never die, then hence, their names also cannot be removed from the book, to include the cause of having of the mark of the beast which they then cannot have, or they would be removed. So, as the unsaved die their names are removed with eventually only the names remaining in the book of those written into it from the foundation of the world, with all of the other names gone. The names were written from the foundation of the world because those names had to pre-date in the book, the birth in the world of any person to be born, in order for them to remain alive forever.
Yet, we also know that those who have the mark, will die, not only the first death but the second death also. So those of the unsaved, being the unsaved, well, they weren't saved.
I think there is more to this than what I've written here, but I hope this answers your question, and, as of right now
I'd rather not delve into those other aspects as they would cause extensive debate, of which, I am not inclined to try to undertake right now.

[Jhn 11:25-26 KJV]
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Rev 20:15 KJV]
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

I'll try - this is how I understand it:
Everyone who becomes saved have had their names written into the book from the foundation of the world; that is, (and this is important), not only that they were written into it, but that they were written into it from the foundation of the world: only the elect of God have had their names written into it then. So, whenever you read the phrase "from the foundation of the world", it is identifying God's elect: those whom God has chosen to salvation. It is from/because of that writing, that they became saved along being given faith in Christ. Only those not written into the book from the foundation of the world - the unsaved - can have the mark of the beast. If someone is saved, then their name cannot be blotted out. This because it is the book of life. So, when someone of the unsaved dies, their name must be removed from the book of life, because they are no longer alive, and it cannot be written back into it - so it remains blotted out. Therefore, if, as Jesus informs below, those who have been given true faith in Christ that they can never die, then hence, their names also cannot be removed from the book, to include the cause of having of the mark of the beast which they then cannot have, or they would be removed. So, as the unsaved die their names are removed with eventually only the names remaining in the book of those written into it from the foundation of the world, with all of the other names gone. The names were written from the foundation of the world because those names had to pre-date in the book, the birth in the world of any person to be born, in order for them to remain alive forever.
Yet, we also know that those who have the mark, will die, not only the first death but the second death also. So those of the unsaved, being the unsaved, well, they weren't saved.
I think there is more to this than what I've written here, but I hope this answers your question, and, as of right now
I'd rather not delve into those other aspects as they would cause extensive debate, of which, I am not inclined to try to undertake right now.

[Jhn 11:25-26 KJV]
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Rev 20:15 KJV]
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Did you know that a Christian or anyone who is a liar, will suffer the same fate as those who take the mark of the beast?


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


Do you believe it is impossible for Christians to lie, or be sexually immoral…

 

[brightfame52]

As I said in a prior post to you, I think that someone who has been saved cannot possibly take the mark of the beast.

The mark of the beast is as old as cain, its man trying to establish his own righteousness, its salvation conditioned on man. John says its the number of a man Rev 13:18

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Prov 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Its being under the curse of the law, man will always think and do in order to be right with God.

Even the elect are born into the world thinking that way, but because God chose them and Christ, and He redeemed them from the curse, they, and they only will be saved from that thinking, and they only were in the Lambs book of life.

 

[rogerg]

Did you know that a Christian or anyone who is a liar, will suffer the same fate as those who take the mark of the beast?

Those are the liars who lie about Christ and God's plan of salvation - so as to profess, and believe in, another
gospel

 

[JLB]

Those are the liars who lie about Christ and God's plan of salvation - so as to profess, and believe in, another
gospel

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8


Anyone who is a liar. Any lie... as well as sexually immoral as so forth.

Please stop adding to this word.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; Revelation 22:18


Do you believe Christians who lie, or are sexually immoral are exempt from this warning?



JLB

 

[JLB]

The mark of the beast is as old as cain, its man trying to establish his own righteousness, its salvation conditioned on man. John says its the number of a man Rev 13:18

Can the self righteous buy or sell?

Can those who are truly righteous buy or sell?


JLB

 

[rogerg]

Do you believe Christians who lie, or are sexually immoral are exempt from this warning?

How about kind David? Was he saved even being sexually immoral?
Everyone who is saved have had their sin forgiven - all of them. Otherwise, salvation
is from our works. So, either you don't understand Christ, or you don't believe in Him, or both.
We had this discussion before, and I'm not interested in going through it again now.

 

[rogerg]

Please stop adding to this word.

Since you've accused me of adding to the Bible, I feel I have to defend myself, so I will turn the same point upon you -
that you've add to the Bible.
Do you realize we are informed in the Bible of the following:

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You obviously don't understand what that verse means or don't care about it. It is you who adds to the Bible by not following its admonition to not base doctrine upon one verse, which is what you repeatedly do and did, but should instead interpret it relative to other like verses to come to a correct conclusion - which you don't and never will
using your method.