Is believing/faith a work ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Why do you think it was an attack? It was a logical conclusion based upon your statement.

No it was neither. What you’ve done is assume anyone who doesn’t have your theology isn’t a christian. That’s a personal attack as well as illogical.

If you have to add to what Jesus did to obtain salvation, then He isn't the Saviour - it is all or nothing.

I’m not adding. Jesus never said “whatever you do, don’t do any works.”

If it is through Jesus, then it is not through you. If it is through you, through Jesus, then it is through you, not
Jesus. Coming to God by Jesus, means that Jesus does it, not by us but by Jesus
Just believing is not enough, and I never said it was. I said only God saves, we don't -
we can contribute nothing.

No, coming to God through Jesus doesn’t mean Jesus does it all and we are passive. If I enter a restricted building because I know the owner, I’ve entered through them but I wasn’t passive. If I come to the King through a persons actions, it doesn’t mean that person did it all.

 

[rogerg]

I hope you learn to obey Him, because He alone has the words of eternal life.

And ditto to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"neither can he know them"

Ah contrar. “Ye shall know them by their fruit.”

 

[rogerg]

No it was neither. What you’ve done is assume anyone who doesn’t have your theology isn’t a christian. That’s a personal attack as well as illogical.

I believe that should someone not perceive and trust in Christ alone as the Saviour, they aren't a Christian.
Hence, the reason for "Christ" in Christian.

I’m not adding. Jesus never said “whatever you do, don’t do any works.”

If you attempt to, or believe that you have to, do anything, you are adding.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that there can only be one Saviour
and that Saviour is Christ, not you. Christ is "the way", you are not. Notice in
the below verse there is no further qualification after the "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Christ alone brings those He has chosen to the Father, they do not, period.

[Jhn 14:6 KJV] 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No, coming to God through Jesus doesn’t mean Jesus does it all and we are passive. If I enter a restricted building because I know the owner, I’ve entered through them but I wasn’t passive. If I come to the King through a persons actions, it doesn’t mean that person did it all.

Yes, it does. The unsaved are not passive, but enemies, enemies of God and of His gospel. Nevertheless, even with
that, God, remained faithful to His promise.

[Gal 3:18 KJV] 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

[Rom 5:10 KJV] 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Col 1:21 KJV] 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

[Randy]

"neither can he know them"

Jesus-Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus-Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Ahhhh, no. Didn't you read the verses I posted to brightfame52, or do you not understand them?
If you don't understand, that's fine, I can clarify them if you'd like.

 

[rogerg]

Ah contrar. “Ye shall know them by their fruit.”

Not people, things spiritual:

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus-Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Let me qualify my last reply to you further so you understand. Those who truly do the will of God, do so as a result being saved, by being taught of God. They do not do so to in an attempt to acquire salvation

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe that should someone not perceive and trust in Christ alone as the Saviour, they aren't a Christian.
Hence, the reason for "Christ" in Christian.

So there’s no repentance and asking God for forgiveness of sin in your theology? You simple trust Jesus is saving you no matter what? This is like a “salvation on my terms” theology. You needn’t read what Jesus actually said but just “trust Him that He’s saving you” sans obeying a single truth He taught.

If you attempt to, or believe that you have to, do anything, you are adding.

Is repentance of sin “adding?”

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that there can only be one Saviour
and that Saviour is Christ, not you.

Sigh!! I don’t think that AT ALL. It’s easy to invent straw men isn’t it?

Christ is "the way", you are not. Notice in
the below verse there is no further qualification after the "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Christ alone brings those He has chosen to the Father, they do not, period.

That NOT what it says. It doesn’t say “no man is brought passively to the Father.” Where does Jesus promise he brings people to the Father?

[Jhn 14:6 KJV] 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

“Come” means YOU COME not “you are passively brought.”

Yes, it does. Not passive, but enemies, enemies of God and of His gospel. Nevertheless, even with that, God,

remained faithful to His promise.

[Gal 3:18 KJV] 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

[Rom 5:10 KJV] 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

[Col 1:21 KJV] 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

One has to come!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not people, things spiritual:

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. you

People and truth are easily discerned by those trained in righteousness by the Holy Spirit.

 

[rogerg]

So there’s no repentance and asking God for forgiveness of sin in your theology? You simple trust Jesus is saving you no matter what? This is like a “salvation on my terms” theology. You needn’t read what Jesus actually said but just “trust Him that He’s saving you” sans obeying a single truth He taught.

God has chosen whom He would save. Repentance is GIVEN by God to those saved. That repentance is repentance
unto believing in and trusting in, Christ alone. If our salvation is conditioned upon something we must do, then it becomes a result of our work, and we cannot be saved by our work.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Is repentance of sin “adding?”

No, but neither will it save anyone: true repentance is given as a gift of salvation. It is in trusting in
Christ. Natural man is incapable of that.

Sigh!! I don’t think that AT ALL. It’s easy to invent straw men isn’t it?

If you believe you have to do something to be saved, you are adding. This is simple,
there can only be one Saviour. As Saviour, He must have done, and do, everything related to it.

That NOT what it says. It doesn’t say “no man is brought passively to the Father.” Where does Jesus promise he brings people to the Father?

It isn't passively. They are enemies of the gospel, fighting against it with their belief. When saved,
they are given a renewed spirit by the Holy Spirit and are converted. Jesus tells us that He brings those chosen to the Father in many places, to include that verse. They "cometh" because of, and only because of, Christ. You are grasping at straws.

“Come” means YOU COME not “you are passively brought.”

"but BY me"

One has to come!

"One" can't "come". They think they come, but in reality, they are being tricked and are following Satan and his gospel because they have been blinded. Everyone is born believing not. So, of themselves, and having a blinded mind, they cannot believe. Therefore, any understanding they may have, is of Satan, because until saved they remain blinded by Satan .
Only those saved are given spiritual eyes that see, and thereby, become unblinded. Notice in Mat 3:16,
that for their spiritual eyes to see, they first had to be "blessed" by God; that is, be saved and born again. Until
then, they remained blinded.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[rogerg]

People and truth are easily discerned by those trained in righteousness by the Holy Spirit.

Having the Holy Ghost is only of/from salvation. He does not train the unsaved.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Eph 4:18, 23-24 KJV] 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: ...

 

[Randy]

Ahhhh, no. Didn't you read the verses I posted to brightfame52, or do you not understand them?
If you don't understand, that's fine, I can clarify them if you'd like.

Ahhh yes Jesus stated "Anyone" Thats any person that "chooses" to do the Fathers will they are going to find the truth. That is Jesus's words are from God or where His teaching comes from. Jesus did not add any qualifiers. His word as He states is truth.

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

God has chosen whom He would save. Repentance is GIVEN by God to those saved. That repentance is repentance
unto believing in and trusting in, Christ alone. If our salvation is conditioned upon something we must do, then it becomes a result of our work, and we cannot be saved by our work.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Thats correct Repentance and Faith are Blessings Christ gives as one Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The fact Jesus has been exalted with Gods right hand, that ensures He a Saviour to give faith, repentance, and forgiveness of sins. Repentance and Faith are basically the same.

No, but neither will it save anyone: true repentance is given as a gift of salvation. It is in trusting in
Christ. Natural man is incapable of that.

Right we naturally can only trust in ourselves, its part of the spiritual death make up or anatomy Luke 18:9

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Our only hope is to be born from above which is totally out of our control.

If you believe you have to do something to be saved, you are adding. This is simple,
there can only be one Saviour. As Saviour, He must have done, and do, everything related to it.

Yes thats works

It isn't passively. They are enemies of the gospel, fighting against it with their belief. When saved,
they are given a renewed spirit by the Holy Spirit and are converted. Jesus tells us that He brings those chosen to the Father in many places, to include that verse. They "cometh" because of, and only because of, Christ. You are grasping at straws.

1 Pet 3:18

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The fruit of Christs death brings the elect to God. Notice it says He [Jesus] brings them/us to God, so they who He brings are passive since He is actively bringing them. Notice that this is the fruit of His death, or having suffered for their sins

Now there is another scripture in 1 Peter 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Now the word returned is the greek word epistrephō: its in the passive voice
to cause to return, to bring back

And again this is the fruit of Christs death in Vs 24 " who His own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree !

Notice also in Vs 24 " that we should live " thats Spiritual life being imparted as well ! He is a complete Saviour !

 

[GodsGrace]

The point was to inform the elect - to give them wisdom and understanding, which they
comprehend, take to heart, and follow as a result of becoming saved and of a renewed mind -
it is not of performing works to become saved. "make every effort to enter that rest": to hasten in ceasing from works.
The following of that will find no place with the unsaved because at their most fundamental level,
their belief/trust is in their works for salvation, not in Christ's works.

"10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

It's nice how you pick out only the verses you like.
Cherry picking as you call it.

So let's look at the entire scripture:


Hebrews 4:1-16
Promised Rest for God’s People

1God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it.
God's promise still stands....
but some might fail to experience it.
Trembling with fear means the writer is speaking to those who are Christian.

2For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God.a 3For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said,

The Israelites also had received the promises but it did them no good.
Because they didn't share the faith of those WHO LISTENED TO GOD. (action on the part of the believer).

“In my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest,’”

If there is no faith, there is no rest.
God expects us to obey Him and have faith.
Apparently it's up to US to have faith. (action on the part of the believer)

even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. 4We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.”c 5But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.”d
6So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. 7So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted:

The Israelites never did get to the place of rest BECAUSE THEY WERE DISOBEDIENT.
But God is always setting a new date...including today.
Because He wishes that none be lost.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts.”

This is a command from God. One of many.
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS. (an action that must be taken by the person)

2 Timothy 2:21
21If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.

We are to keep OURSELVES PURE...
for EVERY GOOD WORK.
KEEP OURSELVES PURE. (an action by the believer)


8Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. 9So there is a special restf still waiting for the people of God. 10For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
12For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

IF we DISOBEY GOD, we will fail.
If WE disobey....an action by the believer.

Christ Is Our High Priest

14So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. 15This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin. 16So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

1. Let us hold firmly to what we believe. HOLD FIRMLY....an action by the believer.

2. Let us come boldy to the throne of our graciuos God WHERE WE WILL RECEIVE HIS MERCY...an action by the believer.

The NT teaches that we are to take many actions.
This is what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I believe that true Christians are not included in the word "all" as used in that verse.
The "somehow" is by, and through, Christ

ALL MEANS ALL.
WHOSOEVER MEANS WHOSOEVER.

One cannot change the meaning of words to suit their theology.

Is it God's word which you so respect or not?

In today's parlance we may say ALL KIDS GO TO COLLEGE.
And really not all do.

BUT DID GOD MAKE THE SAME GRAMMATICAL MISTAKE??

When God Almighty says ALL,
He means ALL.

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting diatribe (actually not that interesting), wondering. Of course, you know there is no way I will
waste any more of my time and effort in answering you. As usual, you miss, and not only miss, but hate the
Bible's most fundamental doctrine - that Jesus Christ alone is Saviour. I know my hope springs eternal, but should
you ever be able to comprehend what Saviour means, post me and maybe we can discuss then.

What exactly does the Savior save you from??

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Having the Holy Ghost is only of/from salvation. He does not train the unsaved.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Eph 4:18, 23-24 KJV] 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: ...

You really have no idea of what I believe. Every sentence is so off it’s hard to know how to answer.

 

[rogerg]

You really have no idea of what I believe. Every sentence is so off it’s hard to know how to answer.

Hmmm. Okay then, what is it you believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

You really have no idea of what I believe. Every sentence is so off it’s hard to know how to answer.

rogerg believes he knows us personally.
He should follow the TOS rules and not get personal.