journeymanisnothing
Member
That's fine rogerg.
For anyone else, following the teachings of our Savior is what matters and can be learned from creation itself, provided a person wanted to know our God.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
For anyone else, following the teachings of our Savior is what matters and can be learned from creation itself, provided a person wanted to know our God.
[Rom 10:14-15 KJV]
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes, Paul is speaking specifically of the prophesied Messiah, but for those who have never heard the gospel of Jesus,
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.I There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psa.19:1-3
And so Paul said,
the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made Rom.1:20
You asked about how people that never heard of Jesus can believe in God and that's what I was referring to.
The verses you included, mention salvation, where? They speak of the glory of the Father, not the salvation through the Son - the verses you posted say nothing about making someone become saved.
The righteousness of God is only revealed only in Christ through the gospel. The GOSPEL OF CHRIST alone is the POWER of GOD UNTO SALVATION (see below). It is impossible for man to come to spiritual wisdom or to faith without having the gospel first preached unto them, and therefore, there is no other way to faith.
To come to a faith in Christ, they have first had to be instructed in Christ by a PREACHER who was sent to them, and there is no salvation outside of Christ as the Saviour.
It is impossible for man to come to faith or understanding without that.
So, the question remains: if it is up to the individual of themselves to come to a faith in Christ to become saved, what happens to those who, for reasons outside of their control, cannot hear or comprehend the gospel to come to that faith, to include those who are unable to due to their physical or mental incapacity - unless, that is, you have come up with another salvation that is not mentioned in the Bible, which salvation, no one else is subject to?
Remember, the coming to faith by an individual through their own intellect as a prerequisite to becoming saved, is your belief, not mine.
[Rom 1:16-17 KJV]
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[Rom 10:14 KJV]
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
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brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Yes natures revelation of God is inadequate to give a salvaic Knowledge of God, it only caused us to spiral into idolatry See Rom 1, Knowledge of the True God comes through the Redemption in Christ Jn 17:2-3
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
A Covenant Blessing Heb 8:10-11
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
God never designed it for man to Him by natural creation, but through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ !
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
God is responsible for sending the Gospel to whoever needs to hear it, He doesnt rely on creation, Creation has never ever been Gods ordained means of His chosen ones hearing the Gospel. The heavens dont declare the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:5-6
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Yeah, brightfame52, that was pretty much my point, but it may have gotten a little lost in the shuffle with journeyman.
I was trying to point out the flaw in a belief where it is up to man to come to faith in Christ through/by their own
intellect to manufacture it. Most who believe it fairer that man to do it than God, haven't considered all of its aspects, as an example, the salvation of those who are unable to do so, for a variety of reasons that are outside of their control. I was attempting to point out that flaw to try to demonstrate that any reliance upon man for salvation in any sense, is folly. To believe/trust that it is by man's ability, only produces a salvation that becomes self-contradictory and has too many exceptions and variations to be of God -- God's salvation is simple, direct, pure, and needs no exceptions because it is perfect.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
rogerg
Yes which is works salvation
Yes and cancels out Salvation by Grace through Faith !
Yes which is works salvation
Yes and cancels out Salvation by Grace through Faith !
journeymanisnothing
Member
Knowing God by whatever means he provided including the things he created and honoring him is salvation.
The Ninevites Jonah warned were saved because they repented. Of course the intellect of mankind comes from God to begin with.
Yes, they live by it, as Jesus instructed, but it seems you blieve people are saved even if people don't live by what he taught.
He's speaking of a time where God was revealed perfectly. He's not saying nobody could know anything about God before Jesus was born.
journeymanisnothing
Member
You're free to believe everyone on earth who never heard the name of Jesus is damned, but our Savior taught sinners to love God first and neighbor as self, which some have done on every continent in every age.
So, you believe they were all given eternal life ? Where do you read that?
They are saved by what Jesus accomplished, not themselves, so, saved first, by/from that, live according to it.
Huh? I don't understand -- which verses do you have in mind that support/explain that?
God does not change. God is eternal and has set His principles throughout scripture and Israel.
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezekiel 18:24
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Ezekiel 18:21-22
The Lord lays out through the law and its principles the guiding light of the straight path.
This is the path Jesus walked and calls us to follow.
This is such an important aspect of the gospel to say it is over thrown is to create a corrupted Jesus.
Jesus declared His way was easy and His yoke light.
This only makes sense if ones heart is transformed and we are born again, created anew, become like children and begin to lay new relationships in new ways.
Salvation and being saved is painted on top of this reality. It is possible though to claim this is all a farce of self justification, like a joke, which people fall for, but Jesus is saying just rest in Him and the rest is irrelevant.
No matter how I see things this position is a form of universalism and gnostic theology, not founded on loving whole people learning how to love through the Holy Spirit. Often I am told we do not learn anything, we are perfect born from on high, except scripture is full of learning, growing, developing in God and His ways.
I know emotionally many will find it impossible to agree with this, but then that is the crux of the issue. So I can just say God bless you.
Really? Then how do you interpret these verses?
[Heb 8:13 KJV] 13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
[Heb 7:11-12, 18-19 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Nothing in the below verses identifies anything that the recipients of salvation must do for it.
The only thing mentioned is faith which is given to them by God as a gift from the fruit of the Spirit.
[Jhn 11:25-26 KJV]
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Heb 8:10-13
The change is given here. "my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts"
The temple was an exterior demonstration of sacrifice for sin, priests, the ceremonies. These are now fulfilled in Christ and what was external is now personal. But the principles are the same, literally, we know them in ourselves.
You can take the idea of change, and extend it incorrectly outside behaviour or the heart, and say it is all spiritual, and everything sinful is related to our physical bodies or the flesh. This is a gnostic theology. It is not what the apostles taught. They taught they knew the Lord because they found they obeyed the commandments, from their hearts.
It was the heart change is why John talks about
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:17-18
Do I understand love? I experience love and have been changed by it and am being so. I also know defence and a closed heart, how easily I can justify everything and anything I do. So this core subject of our walk with Jesus is so hard.
Two people who are saved can take two difference emphasises and say the same thing, while thinking they disagree. Two people who are unsaved but convinced they see things as they are can argue biblical positions and be wrong because their hearts are not set in Jesus or His love. I have met both groups, and I am not able to say which is which, until you begin to talk about how to love others from our hearts. This is really the eternal perspective, and where the battle we have daily often lies.
It is like layers of reality. Each layer must be alive and working for the others to fall into place.
Am I right? In one sense we discover this as we grow in the Lord, and its reality is reality, so you do not learn it rather you find it to be so.
The apostles often wrote like this. They discovered where they were and tried to explain the theology and implications of what they found around them. So it is little wonder church life is actually so mysterious, because it is not like learning a skill, it is about becoming and walking in Jesus.
God bless you
These are the new laws God was speaking about:
[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Were that true, then the only thing that would be changed is how the law is delivered to someone, not the law itself.
But we are informed in Hebrews that the law itself was changed with/by Christ.
Heb 7:11-12, 18-19 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Amen, those who obey God and walk in His ways have no condemnation.
The idea being in Jesus is not being in obedience and following is a big mistake.
I have heard all my life people quoting there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus and missing out verse 4
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:4
Forgiveness comes through recognising ones own failed behaviour and working towards righteous behaviour.
What most do not realise is in the world we respond as our emotions are set by family, society and our own impulses. But none of this is set in stone. Often a different emphasis and perspective results in radically different interactions.
Everything is more complicated and involved, which leaves room for change.
God bless you
No, read those laws closely. Paul was placed under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: BY THE LAW OF CHRIST ITSELF and not by anything that Paul did
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I never said there were all given eternal life. I said our Lord said they would be at the great judgment and condemn the people hearing him who didn't repent, because Christ is greater than Jonah and Jonah didn't preach Jesus (as you misunderstand him) to Nineveh.
No. Sinners are saved by believing the teachings of Jesus, because of what he accomplished.
I just gave you the example of Jonah. Why don't you actually look at the passage Peter Jens cited from Ezekiel, because that's exactly what Jesus followed as a man. In Christs' righteousness, he delivered his own soul. The only way sinners are saved by him is by turning from sin. As Mr. Jens said, God never changes.