Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

randy

I think it is accurate you can receive understanding and learning as in faith from God before your born again.

Not Spiritual understanding and Faith, you must be born again

God is able to comnicate at will.

Sure as He is able and does give the new birth at will Jn 3:6-8

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice Jesus used the perfect tense saying every one born of the Spirit, there were people who had been born of the Spirit. He wasn't referring to the future. Plus this was before His Death

Then you obviously just disregarded my reference to Jn 1:12-13 which plainly indicated some had been born of God that had received and believed on His Name.

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Even that proves that Peter was born of God, no doubt he was one of the ones Jesus meant in Jn 1:12-13

 

[rogerg]

A person is made right with God (righteousness) through faith...
NOT through works.

So faith cannot be a work.

Faith has works as part of itself, otherwise, it wouldn't be faith.

And that this is a gift from God...faith is a gift from God. We just take advantage of it.

First, respectfully, I have never read in the Bible of a concept of taking advantage of faith.
However, were that true, it seems to me that in order to want to take advantage of it, we would already need to first
have faith to desire to take advantage of it, otherwise, why would we want to?
But, if we already have it, then it's ours: it motivates us, we don't motivate it.
Faith is either present full force in effect, or it is not present, there is no middle ground because it is Christ's faith that is imputed to us.

The bible clearly states that we are saved by our faith.
And that this is a gift from God...faith is a gift from God. We just take advantage of it.

Well, if it is a gift of God as you say (and with which I agree), then would it not be our faith that saves, but
the faith of Christ's that saves because He alone is the Saviour. I believe the verse you are referring
to actually says "the gift of God", meaning that God Himself is the gift given unto those saved, by which, faith comes by His indwelling.
At least that's how I see it.

I don't know Greek and don't really care to discuss it although I would...
but if you ask any theologian, you'll see that it's generally agreed that what is the gift of God
is the entire verse: FAITH and SALVATION.

Yes, but since it is faith given by God, then it is not ours to take advantage of or not:
we either have it and we fully believe/trust in Christ as Saviour in all ways or we don't

Works without faith have never saved a person and never will for the very verse above.
We cannot please God without faith.

Christ's faith and faithfulness alone pleased God, ours doesn't.
The faith of Christ contained works - His works being central to His faith, otherwise, without works, His faith would have been dead. So, works is a part of faith - not that works follows after faith but actually makes faith faithful. So, His faith and works are inseparable: both given in God's gift to us.

Even in the OT persons were saved by faith.
Chapter 11 of Hebrews.
It mentions Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.

Saved because of Christ's faith and faithfulness imputed to them, but not because of their faith or their taking advantage of their faith.

Works without faith have never saved a person and never will for the very verse above.
We cannot please God without faith.

Your going to fall back on your reformed idea that faith is a work.
Faith cannot be a work because Paul explains that the two are antithetical to each other.

Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Faith and works are inseparable, but when imputed, both come as the gift. And as the gift, no works are required or allowed from its recipient since Christ did all perfectly on their behalf.

The Law is works...Not faith
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does NOT WORK, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.

Christ's faith is RECKONED; that is, imputed. If reckoned, then by being reckoned, they believe.

The Law is works...Not faith

Works are a part of faith. But Christ satisfied both on our behalf.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[rogerg]

A person is made right with God (righteousness) through faith...
NOT through works.

I should have added, or at least made clearer in my last reply,
that a person is not made righteous with God by anything they might do,
including by their faith. They are made righteous through Christ alone:
that His offering has been imputed to them and by that, they are saved.
Their faith comes as the biproduct of being saved -
it comes as a fruit of the Spirit as part of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Faith is either present full force in effect, or it is not present, there is no middle ground because it is Christ's faith that is imputed to us.

Is it imputed to the elect ? Thats a legal term. I would say its imparted to them at the New Birth. Its Christs Faith in that its Christs Spirit. Since the elect are His Spiritual Offspring [Seed] He gives them Faith which evidences they are His Spiritual Seed.

Christ's faith and faithfulness alone pleased God, ours doesn't.

Amen ! Its in Him God the Father is Well pleased Matt 17:5

Saved because of Christ's faith and faithfulness imputed to them, but not because of their faith or their taking advantage of their faith.

Agreed, I would probably say because of Christs Righteousness imputed to them, but I understand what you are saying

Faith and works are inseparable, but when imputed, both come as the gift. And as the gift, no works are required or allowed from its recipient since Christ did all perfectly on their behalf.

Interesting and somewhat informative.

Christ's faith is RECKONED; that is, imputed. If reckoned, then by being reckoned, they believe.

In principle I agree

Works are a part of faith. But Christ satisfied both on our behalf.

In principle I agree

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Totally agree, the blessing is to be found in Him, clothed in His Righteousness and washed in His Blood !

 

[Randy]

randy



Not Spiritual understanding and Faith, you must be born again



Sure as He is able and does give the new birth at will Jn 3:6-8

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice Jesus used the perfect tense saying every one born of the Spirit, there were people who had been born of the Spirit. He wasn't referring to the future. Plus this was before His Death

Then you obviously just disregarded my reference to Jn 1:12-13 which plainly indicated some had been born of God that had received and believed on His Name.


Even that proves that Peter was born of God, no doubt he was one of the ones Jesus meant in Jn 1:12-13

It would be my understanding that born of God is Jesus receiving the Spirit of God from the Father (In heaven- post resurrection) and it is sent in His name. Peter was not born of God before the resurrection of Christ. John was written after the resurrection as a testimony for future generations and spoke of that new birth which had been given at that writing. God is able to give spiritual understanding to anyone He chooses at any time. Peter knew in His heart Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God from the Father not man as Jesus stated.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

It would be my understanding that born of God is Jesus receiving the Spirit of God from the Father (In heaven- post resurrection) and it is sent in His name

Very confusing. Born of God simply means born of God, the Spirit, who is God. John uses the same phrase several other times 1 Jn 5:1,4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Did not OT Saints have overcoming Faith Heb 11 ? Where did that faith come from ?

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 4:7

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

So again John writes that those who had believed on Christ during His ministry on earth had been born of God Jn 1:12-13, and He had not yet died

 

[brightfame52]

randy said

Peter was not born of God before the resurrection of Christ.

False Jn 1:12-13 proves that false, Peter believed on the name of Christ

John was written after the resurrection as a testimony for future generations and spoke of that new birth which had been given at that writing

Yeah but what John wrote in Jn 1:12-13 was in regards to them who were living during Jesus time when He came to His Own !

God is able to give spiritual understanding to anyone He chooses at any time.

Which spiritual understanding is by the new birth. You are limiting when God can give the new birth !

In essence what you are saying is that God gives spiritual understanding to the natural unregenerate man. That contradicts 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Peter knew in His heart Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God from the Father not man as Jesus stated.

Thats evidence of new birth 1 Jn 5:1


Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[Randy]

randy



Very confusing. Born of God simply means born of God, the Spirit, who is God. John uses the same phrase several other times 1 Jn 5:1,4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Did not OT Saints have overcoming Faith Heb 11 ? Where did that faith come from ?

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 4:7

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

So again John writes that those who had believed on Christ during His ministry on earth had been born of God Jn 1:12-13, and He had not yet died

You are mistaken. Born of God is Christ in us as in born of the Spirit or Born again. It's from God and was post resurrection. John, as I stated, was written post resurrection and that new birth had taken place already. The curtain between the Holy place and Holy of Holies was not torn in two until Jesus gave His last breath on the cross.

God "enables" us to come to Christ for salvation. That takes place "first".

 

[brightfame52]

You are mistaken. Born of God is Christ in us as in born of the Spirit or Born again. It's from God and was post resurrection. John, as I stated, was written post resurrection and that new birth had taken place already. The curtain between the Holy place and Holy of Holies was not torn in two until Jesus gave His last breath on the cross.

God "enables" us to come to Christ for salvation. That takes place "first".

i have shown you, Im going to let it go now, you not listening, even after scripture has shown you and explained.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

I should have added, or at least made clearer in my last reply,
that a person is not made righteous with God by anything they might do,
including by their faith.

Amen and Amen, so good to read this

They are made righteous through Christ alone:

Agreed Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

that His offering has been imputed to them and by that, they are saved.
Their faith comes as the biproduct of being saved -
it comes as a fruit of the Spirit as part of salvation.

Yes His Offering made them perfected forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And the Spirit sanctifies them unto Faith 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Those who Jesus's death perfected, made righteous, the Spirit gives them spiritual life and faith, belief in the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith has works as part of itself, otherwise, it wouldn't be faith.

What part of faith is a work?
Faith is faith and works are works.
I'd agree that works are A PART of faith. After faith, works are necessary.
But I can't say that faith, or any part thereof, is a work.

First, respectfully, I have never read in the Bible of a concept of taking advantage of faith.

I said that we take advantage. It was my words, not every one of my words is from the bible!
In the sense that when God calls to us, we can either reply YES, and take advantage of His plan of salvation,
or we can say No and not take advantage of His plan and perish.
By take advantage I mean AVAIL OURSELVES, sorry if I used the wrong expression.
When God offers salvation to us we should avail ourselves of His offer.

However, were that true, it seems to me that in order to want to take advantage of it, we would already need to first
have faith to desire to take advantage of it, otherwise, why would we want to?
But, if we already have it, then it's ours: it motivates us, we don't motivate it.
Faith is either present full force in effect, or it is not present, there is no middle ground because it is Christ's faith that is imputed to us.

Going to skip the above...I believe my idea was lost in translation.

Well, if it is a gift of God as you say (and with which I agree), then would it not be our faith that saves, but
the faith of Christ's that saves because He alone is the Saviour. I believe the verse you are referring
to actually says "the gift of God", meaning that God Himself is the gift given unto those saved, by which, faith comes by His indwelling.
At least that's how I see it.

Can't agree.

God Himself is the gift.
I agree that God gifted Himself for our salvation.

But if we're discussing Ephesians 2:8 then I know for sure that the gift that God is offering us
is BOTH faith and salvation and even His grace. This is not my interpretation but that of most theologians due to the fact of how the Greek written.

I can understand that through the mercy of God and His love for His creation (us),
all is a gift from Him:
Grace
Faith
Salvation

Yes, but since it is faith given by God, then it is not ours to take advantage of or not:
we either have it and we fully believe/trust in Christ as Saviour in all ways or we don't

Let's change that to AVAIL OURSELVES of it or not...that would be faith.
God reveals Himself and those that see Him and hear Him are offered salvation through faith.
If we have faith that God exists then we respond with a Yes...
It is OUR faith that saves us...but faith ITSELF is a gift provided by God for those who would avail themselves of it.

I think your last sentence is because of my use of the wrong phrase, so I'll ignore it.
(not sure what you mean by trusting in Christ as our Savior IN ALL WAYS)

Christ's faith and faithfulness alone pleased God, ours doesn't.
The faith of Christ contained works - His works being central to His faith, otherwise, without works, His faith would have been dead. So, works is a part of faith - not that works follows after faith but actually makes faith faithful. So, His faith and works are inseparable: both given in God's gift to us.

Ah. I see.
You said that Christ's faith and faithfulness alone pleases God and not ours.
Of course this is true or Jesus could not have been our Savior.

But where in the NT does it state that God is NOT pleased with our faith?
I can't think of any verse or even the concept.

Hebrews 11:6
Without faith it is impossible to please God.
This means that with faith we are pleasing to Him.

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

2 Corinthians 5:9
So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

Psalm 147:10-11
His delight is not in the strength of the horse, nor his pleasure in the legs of a man, but the Lord takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love.


There are many verses about how we please God.

Saved because of Christ's faith and faithfulness imputed to them, but not because of their faith or their taking advantage of their faith.

Verses?

Faith and works are inseparable, but when imputed, both come as the gift. And as the gift, no works are required or allowed from its recipient since Christ did all perfectly on their behalf.

Yes. I hear this a lot.
Christ did it all, so we need do nothing, but we just want to.

I'd say it goes beyond that idea.
Jesus spoke about works and that's all He spoke about.
How we are to behave, what we are to do. Matthew 25 comes to mind.
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick.
In Matthew 5, the Beatitudes, He preaches about how we are to behave and how our composure should be.
In Matthew 7 Jesus says the lawless will not be in heaven, and verse 23....the wise man and the foolish man.

It seems to me that Jesus requires that WE do the work...
I can't recall a verse where He said to just relax because He did it all.

Christ's faith is RECKONED; that is, imputed. If reckoned, then by being reckoned, they believe.


Works are a part of faith. But Christ satisfied both on our behalf.

Meaning of reckoned: (we are reckoned with faith...credited with....OUR faith....not imputed faith)
what does reckoned mean in the bible
what does reckoned meann in the bible

1 : to settle accounts. 2 : to make a calculation. 3a : judge. b chiefly dialectal : suppose, think. 4 : to accept something as certain : place reliance I reckon on your promise to help.


Abraham believed and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

​

New International Version Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. New Living Translation And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. English Standard Version And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. Berean Standard Bible Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. King James Bible And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. New King James Version And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. New American Standard Bible Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness. NASB 1995 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASB 1977 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. Amplified Bible Then Abram believed in (affirmed, trusted in, relied on, remained steadfast to) the LORD; and He counted (credited) it to him as righteousness (doing right in regard to God and man).

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Right.
We are not righteous through The Law.
But by Faith in God.
Through the faith of Christ, He accomplished His mission as Savior.
This righteousness is of God BY FAITH.
Your very words...

 

[GodsGrace]

I should have added, or at least made clearer in my last reply,
that a person is not made righteous with God by anything they might do,
including by their faith. They are made righteous through Christ alone:
that His offering has been imputed to them and by that, they are saved.
Their faith comes as the biproduct of being saved -
it comes as a fruit of the Spirit as part of salvation.

What you've posted is the opposite of what the NT teaches.

We are saved as a by-product of our faith.
How could we have the fruit of the Spirit as part of our salvation
if we have NO FAITH??

If it's faith that saves...how could we possibly have the Spirit first?

Take Ephesians 2:8 again:
For by grace you have been saved through faith...

What comes first??

We are SAVED by God's GRACE...
through FAITH...

We are SAVED
through FAITH

What came first
BEING SAVED
or
FAITH?

 

[rogerg]

What part of faith is a work?
Faith is faith and works are works

To bring forth salvation, Christ being the Son of God, had to provide a foundation of faithfulness to accomplish His mission of removing sin from His chosen. These were His works, not ours. For Christ in the role as a man, His faith was in the Father's promise that His soul would not be left in Hell forever nor would His flesh see corruption. It was the Father's requirement that Christ be sent to Hell: Christ's faith gave Himself the fortitude and the willingness to submit Himself to hell on our behalf.

[Act 2:27-28 KJV]
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

The "man" in the following verse is Christ. By it, He is informing that His works and faithfulness were synonymous with each other. Therefore, by that standard, should anyone claim that a saving faith is a product of themselves, then they'd better have works too - the same works that Christ produced - which is impossible. However (and this is important), for those so chosen, Christ's righteousness is imputed (to them) solely as a gift, further, their faith in Christ is imparted to them through the fruit of the Holy Spirt, it also being a gift. Consequently, for those who are to receive those blessings works are neither possible nor permitted: Christ did it all on our behalf: Those who believe otherwise, they are testifying against themselves and demonstrating that they haven't received it.
Therefore, true faithfulness and faith have works central to them: Christ's works.

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The following verses are stating that for a faith to be a true faith, it must be anchored in works. While good works do follow those saved, these verses say something different. They are telling us that faith itself MUST consist of works as its basis, or that it is dead. It is not telling us that a faith that does not generate works from itself is dead, but that a faith itself not consisting of works is dead - might be a hard distinction to see. How can we know this? We can know because in verse 26, we are told "as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead"; that is, as spirit must exist within the body for it to be alive, so must works exist within faith for it to be alive.

[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I said that we take advantage. It was my words, not every one of my words is from the bible!
In the sense that when God calls to us, we can either reply YES, and take advantage of His plan of salvation,
or we can say No and not take advantage of His plan and perish.
By take advantage I mean AVAIL OURSELVES, sorry if I used the wrong expression.
When God offers salvation to us we should avail ourselves of His offer.

Yeah, I got that - you meant to avail oneself, not take to advantage of, so no problem - and I tried to reply on that basis.

If, as you say, it is just up to us to "avail ourselves", then how can the unsaved do that based upon these verses?
Notice it tells us that "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God".

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

and in conjunction to the above verse:
[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But where in the NT does it state that God is NOT pleased with our faith?
I can't think of any verse or even the concept.

Only if it originates from/by Christ can it please the Father. The following verse informs us that God is pleased
with the Son. Notice that nowhere else in the Bible regarding salvation, are we told that of anyone else. Where do you find that the Father is pleased with anyone other than the Son?

[2Pe 1:17 KJV]
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

But if we're discussing Ephesians 2:8 then I know for sure that the gift that God is offering us
is BOTH faith and salvation and even His grace. This is not my interpretation but that of most theologians due to the fact of how the Greek written.

Both come with/by/from God, not us.

God reveals Himself and those that see Him and hear Him are offered salvation through faith.

No one can see and hear Him unless first being born again. Please read
2 Co 4:4 again.
Before that, they are dead, blind and deaf, spiritually speaking.

It is OUR faith that saves us...but faith ITSELF is a gift provided by God for those who would avail themselves of it.

That would make us our own saviour. If it is to be our choice, and if how we choose determines the
outcome, then by any logic, should we choose the correct way, we would have saved ourselves, and therefore,
our own saviour.

It seems to me that Jesus requires that WE do the work...
I can't recall a verse where He said to just relax because He did it all.

One is for salvation: either Christ is the Saviour or He is not.
The other, works, are the actions OF someone who has been saved; that is
they are as a result of salvation, not as a pathway to salvation.

We are saved as a by-product of our faith.
How could we have the fruit of the Spirit as part of our salvation
if we have NO FAITH??

No, we're saved first - our faith comes from that.
Salvation is as a gift from God in its entirety - everything associated to salvation is given by Him -
Christ did it all on our behalf. We can do nothing for it.


I'll try to finish my reply tomorrow.

 

[Randy]

i have shown you, Im going to let it go now, you not listening, even after scripture has shown you and explained.

All Johns writings are post resurrection.

They were believers but had not yet received the Spirit hence were not born again at that point.
Acts 19:2
And asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

I don't share your belief in calvinism so its probably best to stop the discussion.

 

[Hopeful]

Were that correct Hopeful, then anything that someone has to do for salvation must be done solely because there is a law governing and demanding it be done. Otherwise, were there no such law, then there would be no need to do it, and so we couldn't be denied salvation for not doing it, right? That is, a law would be present whether we realized it or not. ns

As there is no Mosaic Law demanding repentance from sin or baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of of past sins, it is not a Law.
It is just how it was outlined by Peter in Acts 2:38 when he was asked by men "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

So, just by saying there are things to be done by the recipient for salvation, is the equivalent of saying
there is a law and the works of law for it must be done. But we know salvation cannot be acquired through law. By that then, we can also know that it can only be as a gift from God because as a gift is all that remains.

Do you have to tell the truth in order to be judged faithful on the last day?
Do you have to refrain from adultery to go to heaven?
Do you have to buy instead of steal things at the store in order to go to heaven?
If you answered "NO" to any of those questions, the devil has another lying, adulterous, thief as his disciple.

Repentance is a gift given from God to those saved:

It is a gift for men to take advantage of to be saved on the day of judgement.

Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Amen.
God made it known about Himself and His Son and what they did to free us from sin so that only the fool would resist Him and His gift of repentance from sin.

But repentance from what? From dead works:
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Christ's offering itself brought the remission of sin:

Amen to that.
Repentance from sin too though.
I say "too" because you are bent on making the things of the Law, (besides the ten commandments I hope), dead works without even mentioning repentance from sin.
Liars, thieves, and adulterers will not go to heaven.

[Heb 10:16-18 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

As Peter said, in Acts 2:38, that remission of sins is now done by men in the name of Jesus Christ.

Concerning baptism, only baptism of the Spirit saves or has spiritual efficacy.
[1Pe 3:21 KJV]
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Do you know why the resurrection of Jesus is mentioned there?
Because when we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are also immersed into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-4)..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Rom 6:5 tells us why..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
If we aren't immersed into His death and burial, we won't be raised with Him to walk in newness of life either.
Not to mention killing the old man of sin.

[1Co 12:13 KJV]
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Your verse left out the rest of the components of washing, sanctification, and justification.

No, not to be saved because God will not permit one of His elect to die until saved.

Nobody will be "saved" until their day of judgement.
We can, however, be converted.

 

[GodsGrace]

All Johns writings are post resurrection.

They were believers but had not yet received the Spirit hence were not born again at that point.
Acts 19:2
And asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

I don't share your belief in calvinism so its probably best to stop the discussion.

Randy, I agree with you regarding Calvinism.
John Calvin was a super intelligent person, but he got the NT all wrong and I really don't know why...
Actually, it's the acceptance of one belief and then you have to adjust all of doctrine to accommodate it.
Discussion for another time.

I'm writing because you posted something that you either misquoted or got wrong:

You said:
They were believers but had not yet received the Spirit hence were not born again at that point.

(highlighted by me above).

If a person BELIEVES, he is born again.
What if a person comes to believe in Jesus and dies on his way home?
Does he go to hell because he's not baptized?

The Holy Spirit comes from baptism...but we are born again before this.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe in Jesus...
Acts 16:31

Romans 11:10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Randy]

Randy, I agree with you regarding Calvinism.
John Calvin was a super intelligent person, but he got the NT all wrong and I really don't know why...
Actually, it's the acceptance of one belief and then you have to adjust all of doctrine to accommodate it.
Discussion for another time.

I'm writing because you posted something that you either misquoted or got wrong:

You said:
They were believers but had not yet received the Spirit hence were not born again at that point.

(highlighted by me above).

If a person BELIEVES, he is born again.
What if a person comes to believe in Jesus and dies on his way home?
Does he go to hell because he's not baptized?

The Holy Spirit comes from baptism...but we are born again before this.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe in Jesus...
Acts 16:31

Romans 11:10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I define Born again as Jesus taught Nicodemus. Born of the Spirit. I also think as Jesus explained to His disciples that they knew that Spirit because it was with them and He explained it would be in them. So clearly to me faith and belief can exist via the outward presence of the Spirit BEFORE the inward circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit that gives testimony to our Spirit we are the children of God. How God judges I leave that up to Jesus. He is not bound by these things.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

To bring forth salvation, Christ being the Son of God, had to provide a foundation of faithfulness to accomplish His mission of removing sin from His chosen. These were His works, not ours.

Amen this was Christs faithfulness to the covenant of grace from everlasting

For Christ in the role as a man, His faith was in the Father's promise that His soul would not be left in Hell forever nor would His flesh see corruption. It was the Father's requirement that Christ be sent to Hell: Christ's faith gave Himself the fortitude and the willingness to submit Himself to hell on our behalf.

[Act 2:27-28 KJV]
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Agreeable

The "man" in the following verse is Christ. By it, He is informing that His works and faithfulness were synonymous with each other. Therefore, by that standard, should anyone claim that a saving faith is a product of themselves, then they'd better have works too - the same works that Christ produced - which is impossible. However (and this is important), for those so chosen, Christ's righteousness is imputed (to them) solely as a gift, further, their faith in Christ is imparted to them through the fruit of the Holy Spirt, it also being a gift. Consequently, for those who are to receive those blessings works are neither possible nor permitted: Christ did it all on our behalf: Those who believe otherwise, they are testifying against themselves and demonstrating that they haven't received it.
Therefore, true faithfulness and faith have works central to them: Christ's works.

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The following verses are stating that for a faith to be a true faith, it must be anchored in works. While good works do follow those saved, these verses say something different. They are telling us that faith itself MUST consist of works as its basis, or that it is dead. It is not telling us that a faith that does not generate works from itself is dead, but that a faith itself not consisting of works is dead - might be a hard distinction to see. How can we know this? We can know because in verse 26, we are told "as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead"; that is, as spirit must exist within the body for it to be alive, so must works exist within faith for it to be alive.

[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Informative and worth pondering further

Only if it originates from/by Christ can it please the Father. The following verse informs us that God is pleased
with the Son. Notice that nowhere else in the Bible regarding salvation, are we told that of anyone else. Where do you find that the Father is pleased with anyone other than the Son?

[2Pe 1:17 KJV]
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Agreed, since them in the flesh [all the unregenerate] cannot please God Rom 8:8-9

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So if we have that Faith which pleases God, its because we are not no more in the flesh and the Spirit of Christ dwells in us causing the Faith Vs 9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: 14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This passage is so true of all of us by nature, but its rare people submit to this and all what it entails, we find some type of wiggle room to escape it, only the Grace of God can subdue our flesh to receive this truth

No one can see and hear Him unless first being born again. Please read
2 Co 4:4 again.
Before that, they are dead, blind and deaf, spiritually speaking.

Correct, seeing and hearing spiritually are evidences of spiritual life Prov 20:12

The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.

That would make us our own saviour. If it is to be our choice, and if how we choose determines the
outcome, then by any logic, should we choose the correct way, we would have saved ourselves, and therefore,
our own saviour.

This sounds very reasonable to me

No, we're saved first - our faith comes from that.
Salvation is as a gift from God in its entirety - everything associated to salvation is given by Him -
Christ did it all on our behalf. We can do nothing for it.

Amen and thats what True Faith convinces us of !

 

[brightfame52]

All Johns writings are post resurrection.

They were believers but had not yet received the Spirit hence were not born again at that point.
Acts 19:2
And asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

I don't share your belief in calvinism so its probably best to stop the discussion.

Hey Randy, Im going to let it go for now friend ! I have put in enough labor for right now for you to see my view from the scripture.

 

[rogerg]

As there is no Mosaic Law demanding repentance from sin or baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of of past sins, it is not a Law.
It is just how it was outlined by Peter in Acts 2:38 when he was asked by men "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Really, Hopeful? The logic is simple, by the fact that someone is required to meet specific requirements for salvation, and if not meeting them, then they won't be saved, by definition, that which defines that requirement must be law, otherwise, one couldn't be denied salvation. The Mosaic Law was done away with in/by Christ with a new law replacing it. By and from Christ, the Mosaic Law no longer applies nor has any authority regarding salvation.
Please observe:
[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Do you have to tell the truth in order to be judged faithful on the last day?
Do you have to refrain from adultery to go to heaven?
Do you have to buy instead of steal things at the store in order to go to heaven?
If you answered "NO" to any of those questions, the devil has another lying, adulterous, thief as his disciple.

Hopeful, respectfully, that is a ludicrous reply. No one is perfect and we all fall short throughout our lives.
No one is saved because what they do or don't do, or no one would be saved - we are saved solely by Christ and by His offering. If you claim Christianity, what do you think the name Christian represents? Why do you think that Christ is the root of it? It is because Christ brought forth salvation: He did it all!
Look at Paul (Saul), why did he say this?

[1Ti 1:15 KJV]
15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

And this:

[Rom 7:23-25 KJV]
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This verse verses confirms that faith can only come to someone from God

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Repentance from sin too though.
I say "too" because you are bent on making the things of the Law, (besides the ten commandments I hope), dead works without even mentioning repentance from sin.
Liars, thieves, and adulterers will not go to heaven.

Works ARE sin. Because that Christ became the new high priest, a new law came into being that replaced the old law(s). We are informed in the Bible that there are now only two laws in effect relative to salvation. Everyone falls into one or the other because there is no third law.
Notice the "the(s)' underscored below. They are each singular: one of each, not multiples - one law for salvation, one law for sin and death. So, everything pertaining to the acquiring of salvation that is not received as a gift, is a dead work.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

It is a gift for men to take advantage of to be saved on the day of judgement.

If it is up to men to take advantage of it, of themselves, then no one will be saved.

If we aren't immersed into His death and burial, we won't be raised with Him to walk in newness of life either.
Not to mention killing the old man of sin.

We can only become immersed into His death and burial because of Christ.

Because when we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, we are also immersed into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-4)..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

No, it is spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit, not physical baptism. This is true for the same reason that physical circumcision is no longer a requirement - because Christ satisfied everything -- and from which does everything else result.

1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Your verse left out the rest of the components of washing, sanctification, and justification.

Notice "in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God". Jesus alone brought sanctification and justification to those He saves. There is no other way to obtain it.

[1Co 6:11 KJV] 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Nobody will be "saved" until their day of judgement.
We can, however, be converted.

No. Salvation has two parts to it : 1) the salvation of the soul that is given to people until the end of time and, 2) the
full manifestation/realization of salvation at the end of time. Notice the " us which are saved", the "are" is present tense with their soul has been saved spiritually. Number "2", cannot happen to someone unless number "1" happens first.

[1Co 1:18 KJV]
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.