Is believing/faith a work ?

[GodsGrace]

To bring forth salvation, Christ being the Son of God, had to provide a foundation of faithfulness to accomplish His mission of removing sin from His chosen. These were His works, not ours. For Christ in the role as a man, His faith was in the Father's promise that His soul would not be left in Hell forever nor would His flesh see corruption. It was the Father's requirement that Christ be sent to Hell: Christ's faith gave Himself the fortitude and the willingness to submit Himself to hell on our behalf.

Roger,
This is what I call verse roulette.
I post verses and you post verses.
You did not reply to mine.
You didn't say how they could not mean what I said they mean.
Basically, we will get nowhere.

Why do you not accept the verses I posted?

Let's go back to them before we go ahead endlessly...

You had stated that salvation comes before faith.
This is not what the NT teaches.
You'll have to post some verses that explain why salvation comes before faith.

I gave you
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace have you been saved through faith...

It is God's good grace that saves us through faith.
We are saved through faith.
Through faith, we are saved.
Faith saves us.

Could you please explain why this is wrong?
It's plain and simple English.

I mentioned how we are saved by faith by posting a list of persons in the OT that were saved by faith.
We are saved by faith....
NOT we have faith because we are saved...

I had mentioned Abraham...
Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
First Abraham believed in the Lord, He had faith in the Lord...
THEN it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:2l
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
To save those who believe.
Those who believe will be saved.
First comes belief and THEN salvation.

Romans 10:13
“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved.
Calling on the name causes salvation.
First comes the calling and THEN salvation.


Could you post some support for the idea that we must be saved first and THEN believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

I define Born again as Jesus taught Nicodemus. Born of the Spirit. I also think as Jesus explained to His disciples that they knew that Spirit because it was with them and He explained it would be in them. So clearly to me faith and belief can exist via the outward presence of the Spirit BEFORE the inward circumcision of the heart by the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit that gives testimony to our Spirit we are the children of God. How God judges I leave that up to Jesus. He is not bound by these things.

You're making things more difficult that they are.
Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and the spirit.

First one is born physically....we come into the world.
Then one must be born in the spirit...we come to believe in God and serve Him.

This is all born again means.
We must be born of the flesh
and the spirit.
John 3:6

If we are not born of the spirit (born again) then we cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Where does Jesus speak about the inner circumcision of the heart?

 

[brightfame52]

roger said

No. Salvation has two parts to it : 1) the salvation of the soul that is given to people until the end of time and, 2) the
full manifestation/realization of salvation at the end of time. Notice the " us which are saved", the "are" is present tense with their soul has been saved spiritually. Number "2", cannot happen to someone unless number "1" happens first.

[1Co 1:18 KJV]
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Amen also "are saved" is in the passive voice, the subjects are being acted upon, they are being converted by the Preaching of the Gospel/ Cross

 

[GodsGrace]

roger said



Amen also "are saved" is in the passive voice, the subjects are being acted upon, they are being converted by the Preaching of the Gospel/ Cross

What does being converted mean?

Aren't we converted one time?

 

[rogerg]

It is God's good grace that saves us through faith.
We are saved through faith.
Through faith, we are saved.
Faith saves us.

Indeed, we are saved by faith, but it is Christ's faithfulness and faith- what He has accomplished, we are not saved because of anything that we may do.
Let me ask you a question, wondering, do you believe Christ is the Saviour?

Could you please explain why this is wrong?
It's plain and simple English.

I'll try. As simple as I can state it: Christ is the Saviour - we are not. His sole purpose in coming to this world
was to bring salvation to those who were chosen to become saved. He was faithful to the Father in all ways in order to achieve it. He was successful. Being successful, and being perfect in all ways there is nothing left for the recipient
to do to acquire it.

You'll have to post some verses that explain why salvation comes before faith.

Faith is from the Holy Spirit. The only way for someone to be indwelt by the Spirit is to first be saved and born-again. And by the Holy Spirit does faith in Christ come to them. Christ's faithfulness and faith to the Father, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. From that, a faith in Christ is given to the recipient. Further, before salvation, we were prisoners of the god of this world - satan - who blinds everyone under his power. The only way to be removed from that is to be saved, before which, no can one see clearly. I'm not sure if the below satisfy you but if not, let me know and I'll post others.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

NOT we have faith because we are saved...

Yes, because we are first saved. Otherwise, we're still under the god of this world which is Satan and cannot comprehend the truth.

I had mentioned Abraham...
Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
First Abraham believed in the Lord, He had faith in the Lord...
THEN it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham to make him righteous - so it was not of Abraham's doing. Righteousness can only be from, through and by Christ. The receiving of righteousness was accomplished for Abraham the same way as it is for everyone else: God imputed and imparted faith to him.

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I mentioned how we are saved by faith by posting a list of persons in the OT that were saved by faith.

Sure, everyone saved is saved by faith but saved by Christ's faith, not theirs - Christ is the Saviour.

 

[Hopeful]

Indeed, we are saved by faith, but it is Christ's faithfulness and faith- what He has accomplished, we are not saved because of anything that we may do.
Let me ask you a question, wondering, do you believe Christ is the Saviour?



I'll try. As simple as I can state it: Christ is the Saviour - we are not. His sole purpose in coming to this world
was to bring salvation to those who were chosen to become saved. He was faithful to the Father in all ways in order to achieve it. He was successful. Being successful, and being perfect in all ways there is nothing left for the recipient
to do to acquire it.


Faith is from the Holy Spirit. The only way for someone to be indwelt by the Spirit is to first be saved and born-again. And by the Holy Spirit does faith in Christ come to them. Christ's faithfulness and faith to the Father, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. From that, a faith in Christ is given to the recipient. Further, before salvation, we were prisoners of the god of this world - satan - who blinds everyone under his power. The only way to be removed from that is to be saved, before which, no can one see clearly. I'm not sure if the below satisfy you but if not, let me know and I'll post others.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, because we are first saved. Otherwise, we're still under the god of this world which is Satan and cannot comprehend the truth.



Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham to make him righteous - so it was not of Abraham's doing. Righteousness can only be from, through and by Christ. The receiving of righteousness was accomplished for Abraham the same way as it is for everyone else: God imputed and imparted faith to him.

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Sure, everyone saved is saved by faith but saved by Christ's faith, not theirs - Christ is the Saviour.

I wonder how many people that don't believe that will be saved against their will?
Then again, the devils believe that and won't be saved.

 

[Randy]

You're making things more difficult that they are.
Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be born of water and the spirit.

First one is born physically....we come into the world.
Then one must be born in the spirit...we come to believe in God and serve Him.

This is all born again means.
We must be born of the flesh
and the spirit.
John 3:6

If we are not born of the spirit (born again) then we cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Where does Jesus speak about the inner circumcision of the heart?

Paul spoke of that circumcision. If Paul came upon people who believed but had not received that Spirit how could they have been born of the Spirit? The new creation. Christ in us.

The Apostles didn't start out born again. But they believed in Jesus and Peter learned from God Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

You have to hear the knock - THEN open the door. Believe in Him, then receive Him.
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

At the enabling one believes. Then they go to Jesus by that faith.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Born again is Christ in us. I stating one can believe in Christ via the outward presence of the Spirit ,like the Apostles , prior to being born again.

 

[rogerg]

I wonder how many people that don't believe that will be saved against their will?
Then again, the devils believe that and won't be saved.

All who become saved were of they who don't believe, nor did they want the salvation of God.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[Eph 4:18-19 KJV]
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

However, through God's mercy and grace, with/by salvation, comes new understanding:

[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[Rom 8:5 KJV]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

[Eze 11:19 KJV]
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

[Eph 4:20-23 KJV]
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Regarding salvation for devils, that was never a possibility for them

 

[rogerg]

But where in the NT does it state that God is NOT pleased with our faith?
I can't think of any verse or even the concept.

wondering,
This verse might be a little clearer. Only by being saved is the carnal mind taken away. Notice it is the
"carnal mind" itself that is enmity against God. With salvation, comes a new spiritual mind, so, unless and until salvation is given, those with a carnal mind will never be able to please God: what they perceive as faith is not true faith -- true faith is only by the fruit of the Holy Spirit. We were all born with, and continue with, a carnal mind until becoming saved.

[Rom 8:7-8 KJV]
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Yes, because we are first saved. Otherwise, we're still under the god of this world which is Satan and cannot comprehend the truth.

Correct, we by nature are darkness ourselves Eph 5:8

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

And the Gospel that saves is light 2 Cor 4:4

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But if we be darkness which we are by nature, we dont comprehend the Light Jn 1:5

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If you shine a bright light in the face of a blind man, he cant see the light, so he cant see/comprehend spiritually the Light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[journeyman]

Our Lord said,

“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Jn.5:17

People believed in Jesus because of the works he did, so their faith was the result of his work, but they had a choice. Why this is hard for people understand is puzzling.

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed, we are saved by faith, but it is Christ's faithfulness and faith- what He has accomplished, we are not saved because of anything that we may do.
Let me ask you a question, wondering, do you believe Christ is the Saviour?

I'm not answering that question.
Some just don't deserve answering. I mean questions.
If you think I'm here to pass the time away you're wrong.
So let's be a little serious about this.

I'll try. As simple as I can state it: Christ is the Saviour - we are not. His sole purpose in coming to this world
was to bring salvation to those who were chosen to become saved. He was faithful to the Father in all ways in order to achieve it. He was successful. Being successful, and being perfect in all ways there is nothing left for the recipient
to do to acquire it.

Who on this forum has debated this?

Faith is from the Holy Spirit. The only way for someone to be indwelt by the Spirit is to first be saved and born-again. And by the Holy Spirit does faith in Christ come to them. Christ's faithfulness and faith to the Father, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. From that, a faith in Christ is given to the recipient. Further, before salvation, we were prisoners of the god of this world - satan - who blinds everyone under his power. The only way to be removed from that is to be saved, before which, no can one see clearly. I'm not sure if the below satisfy you but if not, let me know and I'll post others.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Satan blinds everyone that is not saved.
None of us was saved before we were saved.
Satan is the god of this world.

So we have a serious problem here if 2 Co 4:4 is right and Ro 1:19 is right.
Co says we cannot see the light of God, be it in the gospel or anywhere.
Ro says God has ALWAYS revealed Himself through His creation.
Which is right? Which is wrong?

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

OK
We are not saved by our works but by God's mercy, which I've stated about 3X now, and also the Holy Spirit renews us as is stated in
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


Colossians 3:9-10
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

We agree on this.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Agreed.
We are made into new beings.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The fruit in Galatians is FAITHFULNESS.
You're using the KJV. I hope you know that those that wrote the KJV did not even consider the culture or language of Jesus' time.

The correct translation is FIDUCIA
NOT
FEDE

Check out the Greek or Latin or any Romance language.
The KJV is wrong.

Again it is OUR FAITH by which we are saved.
If the KJV is correct then Ephesians 2:8 is wrong.

[Rom 1:5 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Agreed.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Agreed. We have been saved, as you've stated several times, throught the faithfulness of Jesus and the righteousness of God, Father. Peter is writing to those that have received a faith OF THE SAME KIND....
He is NOT saying that God gave some faith and not to others.
He's saying that those that have received faith, have done so through the righteousness of God.
Question is: HOW do we receive faith?

Try John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to...

Why is Paul being persecuted, and died, preaching the gospel?
If God gives to those whom He will the faith, then why preach at all?

Paul is also saying above that we must HOLD FAST the Word or we believed in vain...
our belief ends in loss of our salvation.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, because we are first saved. Otherwise, we're still under the god of this world which is Satan and cannot comprehend the truth.



Christ's faith was reckoned to Abraham to make him righteous - so it was not of Abraham's doing. Righteousness can only be from, through and by Christ. The receiving of righteousness was accomplished for Abraham the same way as it is for everyone else: God imputed and imparted faith to him.

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Sure, everyone saved is saved by faith but saved by Christ's faith, not theirs - Christ is the Saviour.

That's it. I've replied to most of your verses.
You have never replied directly to mine.

Also you are discussing how we're saved by the faith of Jesus,,,

Our discussion was regarding what comes first...salvation or faith.
You have not shown that salvation comes first because no other denomination except the reformed believe this to be true.

The first Christians did not believe this.
It is not a biblical belief. It is not what the bible teaches.

Please show some verses that state that salvation comes before faith,
Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

Our Lord said,

“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Jn.5:17

People believed in Jesus because of the works he did, so their faith was the result of his work, but they had a choice. Why this is hard for people understand is puzzling.

Is "result" because of the work He did, or as a direct byproduct of the work He did? One from observation, the other, cause and effect.
We are informed in the Bible that no one will, nor can, choose to believe in the gospel of Christ, until being saved. Until saved, a choice for them does not exist. After salvation, no one would choose to reject it, even were they able to.
Why do they have no choice before salvation?
For this reason:

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Hopeful]

All who become saved were of they who don't believe, nor did they want the salvation of God.

Were of.
Thankfully, God gave them, and me, the way to escape a past we are not proud of.
I praise God for His longsuffering, and patience, on our behalf.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[Eph 4:18-19 KJV]
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
However, through God's mercy and grace, with/by salvation, comes new understanding:
[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[Rom 8:5 KJV]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[Eze 11:19 KJV]
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
[Eph 4:20-23 KJV]
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Regarding salvation for devils, that was never a possibility for them

It is a possibility for those who believe today even if they have yet to act upon that belief.
They should hurry to act.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul spoke of that circumcision. If Paul came upon people who believed but had not received that Spirit how could they have been born of the Spirit? The new creation. Christ in us.

The Apostles didn't start out born again. But they believed in Jesus and Peter learned from God Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

You have to hear the knock - THEN open the door. Believe in Him, then receive Him.
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

At the enabling one believes. Then they go to Jesus by that faith.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Born again is Christ in us. I stating one can believe in Christ via the outward presence of the Spirit ,like the Apostles , prior to being born again.

But are you saying someone can believe in Christ and not be born again?
What does BELIEVE mean to you?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,
This verse might be a little clearer. Only by being saved is the carnal mind taken away. Notice it is the
"carnal mind" itself that is enmity against God. With salvation, comes a new spiritual mind, so, unless and until salvation is given, those with a carnal mind will never be able to please God: what they perceive as faith is not true faith -- true faith is only by the fruit of the Holy Spirit. We were all born with, and continue with, a carnal mind until becoming saved.

[Rom 8:7-8 KJV]
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Agreed.
The carnal mind is enmity against God.

But you said we cannot be pleasing to God.
I believed that you meant even we Christians because God is pleased only with Jesus.
You even posted Matthew 3:17 and said there was only one person God was pleased with.

What about all those verses I posted, and there are many more.
Why don't you face up to verses I post and have a reply for them just like I did for yours in the previous post?

Do you realize that if you're right and ALL THOSE OTHER VERSES exist...
it means the bible is contradicting itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Our Lord said,

“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Jn.5:17

People believed in Jesus because of the works he did, so their faith was the result of his work, but they had a choice. Why this is hard for people understand is puzzling.

Because persons become indoctrniated instead of studying their bible ALSO on their own.
Before you know it, they're reading meanings INTO the bible (eisegeses)
Instead of receiving meanings FROM the bible (exegesis).

When Jesus marched into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, the week of the Passion, crowds were awaiting Him for the very reason that you stated... They had heard of the miracles He performed and were anxious and excited to see Him.

By seeing these works people believed He was the Messiah, or at least someone sent by God.
You're very logical, but not everyone is.

We have posters here that believe one is saved first, and then comes to believe.
How is that possible after reading the NT?
Jesus came for ALL MEN, not just some that God picked out.
God would desire that all men be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4

But not all men wish to be saved.
It's their free choice.

 

[journeyman]

Is "result" because of the work He did, or as a direct byproduct of the work He did? One from observation, the other, cause and effect.

The cause is the work of God. The effect is belief,

that the works of God should be made manifest in him....He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
And he said, Lord, I believe. Jn.9:3,7,38

We are informed in the Bible that no one will, nor can, choose to believe in the gospel of Christ, until being saved. Until saved, a choice for them does not exist. After salvation, no one would choose to reject it, even were they able to.

Angels sinned and we are warned by it.

Why do they have no choice before salvation?
For this reason:

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

This passage is referring to the light of Christ being shown through the conduct of believers toward unbelievers so that they will be saved,

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Cor.4;5-6

 

[rogerg]

If you think I'm here to pass the time away you're wrong.
So let's be a little serious about this.

I asked because if you understand Christ as the Saviour, then how can there be anything outside of what Christ
did that is left for someone to do? He either is the Saviour fully and completely, or He is not: there is no middle ground. Otherwise, your answer would encompass two mutually exclusive and irreconcilable differences at the same time which makes them incorrect.
Look, wondering, what I'm trying to say is extremely simple - so simple in fact that it may seem too simple on its face, so it's easy to overcomplicate. if Jesus is the Saviour as you yourself have agreed to, then He by definition must be the one who does everything associated to providing salvation, or He's not the Saviour. It's just as simple as that - no more, no less.

Who on this forum has debaed this?

Everyone and anyone who thinks that something else is required on their part for salvation over and above what Christ achieved.

Satan blinds everyone that is not saved.
None of us was saved before we were saved.
Satan is the god of this world.

So, if blinded, then no one would be able to choose Christ, right?
And then those who do must have been saved in order to become unblinded, right?

The correct translation is FIDUCIA
NOT
FEDE

Check out the Greek or Latin or any Romance language.
The KJV is wrong.

Really? I did check. Here's the result

TOOLS

Gal 5:22
But G1161 the fruit G2590 of the Spirit G4151 is G2076 love, G26 joy, G5479 peace, G1515 longsuffering, G3115 gentleness, G5544 goodness, G19 faith, G4102

Strong's G4102:
The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).

pistis (Key)

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
   1. relating to God
      1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
   2. relating to Christ
      1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
   3. the religious beliefs of Christians
   4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2. fidelity, faithfulness
   1. the character of one who can be relied on

Ro says God has ALWAYS revealed Himself through His creation.

Both are right. But revealing is not necessarily perceiving. Until receiving spiritual eyes that can see, no one is able to
perceive what has been revealed.

Again it is OUR FAITH by which we are saved.
If the KJV is correct then Ephesians 2:8 is wrong.

Huh? You just contradicted what you previously said.
No, if it is our faith, then we've become our own Saviour, which cannot be possible.
Did you miss the "not of yourselves" and "gift of God" parts of the verse?
I don't follow what you're saying - your comment doesn't match the verse.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Agreed. We have been saved, as you've stated several times, throught the faithfulness of Jesus and the righteousness of God, Father. Peter is writing to those that have received a faith OF THE SAME KIND....
He is NOT saying that God gave some faith and not to others.
He's saying that those that have received faith, have done so through the righteousness of God.
Question is: HOW do we receive faith?

Try John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,
that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to...

wondering - it's getting difficult to follow where one of your questions ends and another starts.
Anyway...
Yes, he IS saying that God gives faith to some but not to others. True faith is a by-product of salvation. Since
not everyone is saved, then He does not give faith to everyone. True faith is a gift from God only to certain people.

"For God so loved the world": the world of which He is speaking is of the world to come - not this world. This world is to be destroyed so He cannot mean this one. Based upon your interpretation either God cannot
save that which He loves or can destroy that which He hates. Which is it?
The "whosoever(s)" are those whom God has chosen, but who that consist of is not addressed by this verse.

I don't understand why you are referencing 1 Cor 15:1-2?

Why is Paul being persecuted, and died, preaching the gospel?
If God gives to those whom He will the faith, then why preach at all?

In order to make known to those saved the mystery of the gospel for their spiritual edification. Those who have been saved do not just wake up one morning knowing all there is to know about salvation. Through the Bible and the preaching of the gospel does God give to them that knowledge.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?

[Eph 6:19 KJV]
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Paul is also saying above that we must HOLD FAST the Word or we believed in vain...
our belief ends in loss of our salvation.

Which verses?

You have never replied directly to mine.

I may have missed a few points due to an oversight in shifting back and forth, but for the ones
I responded to, I responded directly. Maybe the problem is
with you in that you couldn't actually comprehend what was said?

Please show some verses that state that salvation comes before faith,

Just so that I am clear regarding your point, are you saying
that one's faith comes first and is what causes salvation?

 

[journeyman]

Because persons become indoctrniated instead of studying their bible ALSO on their own.
Before you know it, they're reading meanings INTO the bible (eisegeses)
Instead of receiving meanings FROM the bible (exegesis).

When Jesus marched into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, the week of the Passion, crowds were awaiting Him for the very reason that you stated... They had heard of the miracles He performed and were anxious and excited to see Him.

By seeing these works people believed He was the Messiah, or at least someone sent by God.
You're very logical, but not everyone is.

We have posters here that believe one is saved first, and then comes to believe.
How is that possible after reading the NT?
Jesus came for ALL MEN, not just some that God picked out.
God would desire that all men be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4

But not all men wish to be saved.
It's their free choice.

Yes wondering. It's why he wanted it recorded,

these are written, that ye might believe Jn.20:21