Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[JohnDB]

Papa,

In #239 you stated that 'God is first and foremost a God of love'. I asked for scriptural support.

Now you provide 1 John 4:8 as that biblical support. What does this verse state? 'Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love' (NIRV).

This does not state that God is first and foremost a God of love. What does it state? 'God is love'. Nothing is said about his attribute of love being 'foremost'. God's love is only one of his attributes. How about His attributes of omnipresence, omniscience (knowing Himself and all other things), omnipotence, immutability, holiness, righteousness/justice, goodness, benevolence, mercy, grace and truth?

Oz

God's holiness is what generates righteousness, justice, goodness, benevolence, mercy, grace and truth.
A. W. Tozer Knowledge of the Holy goes into these attributes of God in great detail.

 

[OzSpen]

God's holiness is what generates righteousness, justice, goodness, benevolence, mercy, grace and truth.
A. W. Tozer Knowledge of the Holy goes into these attributes of God in great detail.

John,

I'd need to have that explained further - with biblical support. I have that book by Tozer. Must read it again.

All systematic theologies that I have access to in my library, have sections on the attributes of God. The issue I raised was that the Scripture of 1 John 4:8 does not support the love of God being his foremost attribute.

Oz

 

[Razeontherock]

I think the direction this conversation is headed is fairly simple:

God is love. God is a God of Love, but He is also a God of wrath.

That's harsh, and we're bound to not like it so much. None of us here have tasted 'the cup of His wrath, undiluted,' thank heavens. ECT is unimaginable. Eternity is a long time! Take the E out, and CT for say a millennium is I guess maybe imaginable, while still being plenty harsh. At what point does God say 'enough?' I expect we are all familiar with Scriptures that suggest He does.

Do any of us really know? Do we really need to think we can 'pin Him down' with the revelation He's graciously bestowed upon us through His Word? It seems to me that is rather misusing our sword.

Seeking His face is always good ...

 

[JohnDB]

John,

I'd need to have that explained further - with biblical support. I have that book by Tozer. Must read it again.

All systematic theologies that I have access to in my library, have sections on the attributes of God. The issue I raised was that the Scripture of 1 John 4:8 does not support the love of God being his foremost attribute.

Oz

Yeah
For such a tiny book it's a difficult read. Loooooonnnnnng sentences.
But the creation account is going to be the proof text for God's love. Most all of creation was "spoken" into existence...
But when it came time for man to be created God formed man with his hands and breathed life into him....a much more intimate process than simply speaking.

 

[chessman]

IS there something in my post you do not understand?

Absolutely. Which is why I ask you (and others) the questions that I do. When these questions are left unanswered as you have done, I’m left still not understanding the reasons for your views:

Here’s a couple of examples relevant to what you were asked to present by OzSpen (Scriptural evidence that shows conditional immortality is wrong) and your presenting 1 Cor 15:52-53 (see posts 288 and 289) as that proof.

Given the fact that Paul is talking to and about his brothers in Christ in this passage (to include some who will not die (v51), i.e. will still be living when this putting on of immortality occurs) and explaining to us brothers that when this putting on of an immortal body occurs, that this event verifies the prophetic Scriptures (Is 25:8 and Hos 13:14), I asked you a couple of questions:

Do the wicked get victory?
Does ‘all mankind’, to use your interpretation, get victory?

It's right there in front of you.
You quoted it.
"THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED"
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

There’s nothing in this verse that indicates “all of mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible” which was your claim. In fact, it’s provably not teaching that. Paul, in v51 says:

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

1 Corinthians 15:51 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:51&version=NASB

Is it your view that “all of mankind” will die? Or will there be some brothers in Christ who do not die?

 

[chessman]

But when it came time for man to be created God formed man with his hands and breathed life into him....a much more intimate process than simply speaking.

God blessed them [every living creature that moves], saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”​

Genesis 1:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 1:22&version=NASB

That’s fairly intimate. And comes with a Command. So’s this

God blessed them [male and female]; and God said to them, “ Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”​

Genesis 1:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 1:28&version=NASB

 

[PeterJens]

It is an interesting perspective. A lot of people have called destruction of sinners
as heresy, are often incapable of seeing the reason why people are asking this question.
The core issue why I began to wonder over this, is the nature of rebellion against God.
It seems lost man, is disfunctional, does not hold together, has fundamental contradictions
if put together leads to a person who dies, cannot continue to exist.

This led me to the idea, destruction of things that do not function or work, seems more
appropriate than punishment in terms of torture. The idea of punishment assumes that people
could be otherwise, rather than actually lost as slaves to sin. I then went on to think the difference
of sinners to saints, is they do not see God when He is in front of them.

Jesus calls us to respond, now, here.
So the veil that hides God from man is in their perception, their spirit, their heart.
So if the veil is lifted without new birth, then rebellion is complete.
At this point, the situation a sinner is in, will be obvious. and the impossibility to resolve this without
new birth, will be the reality. Day will have come, and the night have been removed.

So this leads me, to side with destruction of sinners in the lake of fire rather than eternal torment.

 

[Razeontherock]

Fire also has a purging effect, and Scripture speaks about this quite a lot. ECF's held both these views other than ECT without being labelled heretics.

I realize the RC doctrine of purgatory sounds similar, further demonstrating these are not new ideas, nor are they heretical.

That video is over an hour long; for those wanting to cut to the chase, starting at 11:00 quickly brings you to some very strong Scriptural support.

 

[OzSpen]

Yeah
For such a tiny book it's a difficult read. Loooooonnnnnng sentences.
But the creation account is going to be the proof text for God's love. Most all of creation was "spoken" into existence...
But when it came time for man to be created God formed man with his hands and breathed life into him....a much more intimate process than simply speaking.

John,

Isn't that by inference rather than direct statement?

Couldn't the creation account be proof of God's omnipotence?

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

John,

Isn't that by inference rather than direct statement?

Couldn't the creation account be proof of God's omnipotence?

Oz

Yes and Yes,

The first "yes":
God could have spoken us into being just like the animals...but He didn't.
He could have spoken and we would have become a living "nepesh" like the animals...but He didn't.
He could have made us to look like anything but instead he made us in the image of what is the very best.... Himself.

All of this speaks to a higher level of concern and care about mankind. Where not expressly stated the inference is not lost on those of us with craftsmanship talents.
I lead crews of men (and a few women). Most of the time I just tell them what to do. But if the project is important enough I bring in my tools and do it myself...and usually show off a bit. I'm not the only one who does that either.

God's omnipotence:
All power comes from God. God is perfectly efficient in his use of power. There is no unintended "spillover" effect. (Otherwise He isn't Sovereign or omniscient)
All power belongs to God and no one has any that God doesn't specifically uphold.
Therefore your next breath isn't at God's acquiescence but at His active support. God's supply of power is infinite and all power returns to it's Creator... therefore He never loses any.

 

[PeterJens]

Eternal torment of people is mentioned directly in scripture.

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name
Rev 14:11

Now why is this verse a shock. Do not all sinners go to the lake of fire and are tormented
day and night for eternity? If this was assumed by John, why is the description such a shock
to those who worship the beast?

Because John knows sinners are destroyed, not tormented forever. But for those who ally
themselves openly and directly with the beast, they will receive this eternal punishment.

Paul talks about sinners being innocent to a degree.
"I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief."
1 Timothy 1:13

The ignorance and unbelief brings blindness.
Rebellion with sight, ie knowing God to be God yet rebelling against Him
is worthy of eternal torment.

So I see eternal torment as existing, but not for most.

 

[UberMink]

Bible Research.Org (used with permission)
Hell Is Simply the Grave
Hell is simply the grave, as taught in the Bible. Where do we go when we die? The Bible is very clear on this subject. Christ, the apostles, and the prophets teach that when a person dies they are asleep in a state of inactivity until the time of their resurrection. Some clergy explain that when someone dies, good people go to heaven and bad people go to "hell", being tortured by demons for all eternity. This false teaching has been passed on as an accepted belief for centuries. Some clergy say the deceased are now "looking down from heaven, watching over you". Have you ever been to a funeral where the clergyman says, "This man didn't quite live up to the standard and is now screaming at us from below, being tortured by a fiery landscape of brimstone and dwelling among devils?" Probably not. To condemn an individual this way would be to judge him, and the Bible says it’s not time for judgment" (Ecclesiastes 3:17, 12:14). If they declare a person is in heaven, is that not also making a judgment on them? It is not for us to judge.

Also, reason this, that the Bible teaches that we either live forever or die forever (Deuteronomy 30:19). If a person was being tortured for all eternity, wouldn't he or she still be alive? When a person dies, they are asleep in the grave until their time of resurrection (Daniel 12:2).

9. Hell Is Simply the Grave
The Grave Hell (Strong’s Concordance #7585) in the Hebrew translation meaning Sheol or “grave”.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
When people die, they sleep in the grave until the time of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
When people are dead, they have no thoughts or actions.

Jonah 1:17, 2:1-2
Jonah cried to God from his would-be grave.

Acts 2:25-31
When Jesus Christ died, he was put into his tomb, but was not left in hell (the grave). His Father brought him back to life after three days and three nights. (See also 1 Kings 2:10 and Matthew 12:40.)

Revelation 20:13-14
Death and the grave (hell) are eliminated.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[UberMink]

Fire also has a purging effect, and Scripture speaks about this quite a lot. ECF's held both these views other than ECT without being labelled heretics.

I realize the RC doctrine of purgatory sounds similar, further demonstrating these are not new ideas, nor are they heretical.

That video is over an hour long; for those wanting to cut to the chase, starting at 11:00 quickly brings you to some very strong Scriptural support.

The doctrine of purgatory is found in the Apocrypha. Which is not in the new testament. Nor are the books in the earliest copies of the new testament, nor in the Septuagint at the time of Emmanuel. Nor in the earliest canonical lists.
So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin (Second Maccabees 12:41-45)

Whereas the scripture in the canonical book reads as : Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment (Hebrews 9:27)

 

[stovebolts]

The doctrine of purgatory is found in the Apocrypha. Which is not in the new testament. Nor are the books in the earliest copies of the new testament, nor in the Septuagint at the time of Emmanuel. Nor in the earliest canonical lists.
So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin (Second Maccabees 12:41-45)

Whereas the scripture in the canonical book reads as : Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment (Hebrews 9:27)

Actually, I believe purgatory has its roots in Gehenna.

If one does his own study on this, and not from a textual, academic pov, but from a historical and cultural pov they will realize the huge differences between shoel, gehenna, hades and tarsus.

 

[UberMink]

Actually, I believe purgatory has its roots in Gehenna.

If one does his own study on this, and not from a textual, academic pov, but from a historical and cultural pov they will realize the huge differences between shoel, gehenna, hades and tarsus.

What passages are you familiar with that would show purgatory's roots are in Gehenna.

 

[stovebolts]

What passages are you familiar with that would show purgatory's roots are in Gehenna.

It's actually the other way around. From a historical and cultural perspective every Jew who died spent time in Gehenna. How long depended upon what needed to be purged. It was said that a good rabi would only pass through Gehenna and because his soul was so clean, he could pick up souls and take them with him as he passed through. Jews today still believe this and it is written by the Sages pre-Christ.

I would put forward that every Jew in the days of Jesus understood Gehenna in a far different way than we do today. But what both of our cultures understand is that Gehenna wasnt a nice place and was to be avoided at all cost. It was tormenting, yet necasarry like a refiners fire. Hence, purgatory.

Hades was very similar. Everyone who died went there and it was more like Hotel 6 than the Hilton. Tartarus was in the deepest Bowles of Hades and was reserved for only the most wicked.

I do not deny Hell, but I do try to hear the words of Jesus from the perspective of the original listeners.

 

[Razeontherock]

The doctrine of purgatory is found in the Apocrypha. Which is not in the new testament. Nor are the books in the earliest copies of the new testament, nor in the Septuagint at the time of Emmanuel. Nor in the earliest canonical lists.
So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin (Second Maccabees 12:41-45)

Whereas the scripture in the canonical book reads as : Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment (Hebrews 9:27)

Well that's certainly an interesting direction for this discussion! To begin with let me clarify that I would never defend either the Apocrypha or RC doctrine; I've only read two books of the Apocrypha and would only suggest those have some use where they don't contradict Scripture but might give some back story to help better understand Scripture itself.

Using praying for the dead is itself controversial in that the NT makes one obscure reference to being Baptized for the dead in 1 Cor 15:29, without condemning the practice or declaring it futile that I can see. So I don't see anything conclusive here either way.

Is God incapable of making the Judgment that an individual should suffer hell fire for a period of His choosing, after which they're redeemed? I try to be very careful about any such thoughts that limit God.

I find Scripture to be silent on anything past "all Judgment is given to the Son." And of course we know all His Judgments are just and true, and His ways past finding out.

 

[Razeontherock]

Actually, I believe purgatory has its roots in Gehenna.

If one does his own study on this, and not from a textual, academic pov, but from a historical and cultural pov they will realize the huge differences between shoel, gehenna, hades and tarsus.

How much of this is revelation from God, vs people just making stuff up?

As a separate point, I think for the purposes of this thread that we should clarify if we're all in agreement that all such differences matter only from the time of death until the Great White Throne of Judgment. After that, all these distinctions become moot because the inhabitants enter the lake of fire, or else are judged some other way that I don't see Scripture revealing to us.

Yet a further point is I'm uncomfortable with the distinction of gehenna, having come into contact with whichever cult it is (JW, I think?) that teaches it's basically the same thing as was outside Jerusalem. I don't really know if that just teaches annihillationism and was just explained poorly to me, or what. And yet I see no reason to think Jesus used the word in a way different than it's common usage at the time.

 

[stovebolts]

Razeontherock raz,
I am only commenting on its common usage of the day. Gehenna occupies a physical plot of land and had historical events in Israel's history tied to it.

Talk to a New Yorker about 911 and you will hear it differently than somebody in Japan 2,000 years from now.

 

[Razeontherock]

Razeontherock raz,
I am only commenting on its common usage of the day. Gehenna occupies a physical plot of land and had historical events in Israel's history tied to it.

Talk to a New Yorker about 911 and you will hear it differently than somebody in Japan 2,000 years from now.

Yup. I tell myself I know it's common usage of the day, and see no reason to think Jesus used it differently. Do you agree?