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Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

They certainly are that. Too precious! Also 11 and 13 now. :/ But I may be moving close to them and I love teens.

Looking for my pills now!
Are you ready for when they can start driving? My godson was 4 a few weeks ago and suddenly 16 yesterday. And his parents bought him a used Barracuda having had two wrecks in the family van three weeks in to having his license. But I'm old, experienced, lots of time on the road. I could handle that news. :thudSee, have floor shall handle.

Amazing how fast they grow up. While as cuddly snugly babies that time lasts for the blink of an eye. It's just not fair. lol
I'd share some of my pills with you but I need as many as I can keep to meself. I have a 15 year old goddaughter. :eek2 Accelerator, Interstate, high speed cars that top end at 160+ , FLOORS!
 
Are you ready for when they can start driving? My godson was 4 a few weeks ago and suddenly 16 yesterday. And his parents bought him a used Barracuda having had two wrecks in the family van three weeks in to having his license. But I'm old, experienced, lots of time on the road. I could handle that news. :thudSee, have floor shall handle.

Amazing how fast they grow up. While as cuddly snugly babies that time lasts for the blink of an eye. It's just not fair. lol
I'd share some of my pills with you but I need as many as I can keep to meself. I have a 15 year old goddaughter. :eek2 Accelerator, Interstate, high speed cars that top end at 160+ , FLOORS!
totally not ready. But I have prayer!
 
I accept it was a parable that taught on life-after-death in the Old Covenant.
I've heard many say it is a parable, and Noahs Ark for example too but I tend to think it was an actual account mainly because of the details such as the rich man mentioned his 5 brothers, Lazarus mentioned by name and the Ark specific measurements and finishing details .. Parables were more generic as I see it .. But still if you see it as a parable it is no less true imo ..
 
Papa,

Presuppositions need evidence to demonstrate their truthfulness.

Oz
Well yes they do. But as you know, God is difficult to define and narrow down to just one characteristic. Yes he is wholly other, and a bunch of other words that seek to describe Him. However, from what I see in how He has cared for the world from the creation, I see the enormity of His love coming through again and again. The Bible is His love story to us. Jesus demonstrated this love with His life and then His death. He came to defeat death and the works of Satan for us.

The emphasis on love is not clearer than 1 Corinthians 13:13. And what fulfills the entire law? Galatians 5:14. Why this emphasis on love? Because our God is a God of love. Yes, He's many other things as well. But the greatest is love. What makes God wholly other? His perfect love. The theme of love permeates the Scriptures. I believe that this characteristic of God is central to who He is.

(I'll probably get a C- for that answer but it's the best I got) ;)
 
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I've heard many say it is a parable, and Noahs Ark for example too but I tend to think it was an actual account mainly because of the details such as the rich man mentioned his 5 brothers, Lazarus mentioned by name and the Ark specific measurements and finishing details .. Parables were more generic as I see it .. But still if you see it as a parable it is no less true imo ..

bru,

I urge you not to bring in Noah's Ark as an 'example' because I mentioned not a word about Noah's Ark being a parable. It is not. It's an historical reality, leaving lots of evidence in the mountains, canyons, etc.

How many brothers are mentioned in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11–32 NIV)? Jesus uses more than one brother here for a parable.

That Lazarus is mentioned by name is sometimes used by those who consider this is a narrative of a true story. It doesn't matter to me as it's the truth of the story that matters - regarding life-after-death.

There is some question as to whether this story is a true, real-life account or a parable, since two of its characters are named (making it unique among parables). Parable or not, however, there is a much we can learn from this passage (GotQuestions?)​

Oz
 
bru,

I urge you not to bring in Noah's Ark as an 'example' because I mentioned not a word about Noah's Ark being a parable. It is not. It's an historical reality, leaving lots of evidence in the mountains, canyons, etc.

How many brothers are mentioned in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11–32 NIV)? Jesus uses more than one brother here for a parable.

That Lazarus is mentioned by name is sometimes used by those who consider this is a narrative of a true story. It doesn't matter to me as it's the truth of the story that matters - regarding life-after-death.

There is some question as to whether this story is a true, real-life account or a parable, since two of its characters are named (making it unique among parables). Parable or not, however, there is a much we can learn from this passage (GotQuestions?)​

Oz

I'd love to see you start a thread on said evidence of the Ark. I've seen some, but more of atheist scientist's refutations. The science forums behave weirdly for me, not always showing all threads; I'd find it sooner or later, lol

I think Brujaq was just saying the truths of Noah hold true even if it's just a myth, and that's the connection to the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
 
Papa,

D+ but with some significant reservations. I'm a tough marker!

Why do you want to narrow God down to one characteristic when he has many characteristics / attributes?

See Wayne Grudem, The Communicable Attributes of God.

Oz

Lol, go easy on him! Remember he had to contend with the NEA & the DoE, and may have even taught through the nightmare that was the DoE taking control away from local government where it should have STAYED.

Not to mention putting up with administrators for an entire career, who's sole function is to make it impossible for teachers to teach, while taking all the pay for themselves. After all that it's a wonder anyone can still think at all ...
 
bru,

I urge you not to bring in Noah's Ark as an 'example' because I mentioned not a word about Noah's Ark being a parable. It is not. It's an historical reality, leaving lots of evidence in the mountains, canyons, etc.

How many brothers are mentioned in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11–32 NIV)? Jesus uses more than one brother here for a parable.

That Lazarus is mentioned by name is sometimes used by those who consider this is a narrative of a true story. It doesn't matter to me as it's the truth of the story that matters - regarding life-after-death.

There is some question as to whether this story is a true, real-life account or a parable, since two of its characters are named (making it unique among parables). Parable or not, however, there is a much we can learn from this passage (GotQuestions?)​

Oz
Forgive me Bro if you misunderstood me , I stated in my post it didn't matter but was truth either way , I was just saying people say other things in the Bible are believed to be parables too that I don't consider parable, you ain't seen nobody that believes in the great flood more than me :lol .. We have the Word first and foremost , then our testimony of it and Jesus .. But we also have gifts of the Spirit, dreams and visions, prophesy and such that motivate and confirm too .. My particular motivation was a dream being out of the presence of God and gradually being deceived by who appeared as the best friend I ever had .. And he didn't look like any devil I've ever seen .. The results were I preached Jesus to every soul I come in contact with (in season and out of season) for about 2 years out of fear they might go to that place and many got saved was the result .. I also had a dream of being in Heaven the night before but it did not motivate me like knowing the terror of the Lord did .

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
 
If there is no eternal existence being dead to God in hell then that would be the 2nd best news ever told and the absolute best news for those who hate Christians and Jesus .. Why even preach repentance and Jesus or put yourself up for persecution if there is no eternal hell ? God is Holy and Righteous , he is also a God of law and his Word ..

This is an interesting point. Is God into intimidation and domination, "I am God you punny man!!!"

Everything I read about the Lord is the opposite. Adam falls from grace, and is hiding. The Lord
just asks where he is. He then prepares Adam and Eve for their future life.

The parable of the prodigal son, is you are allowed to leave and abuse the blessing one has, but
God is always waiting for the return and to bring blessing when and if this happens.

Jesus comes to meet the repentant humble soul and heal them.
God is patient with Israel and could destroy them but chooses to bring judgement and forgiveness.

Even to the church which is failing Jesus says

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."
Rev 3:20-21

Judgement is not a time of vengance or domination, but great sadness, justice, truth and bringing
the consequences of peoples lives to bear on them.
So what people who rebel against God actually think has never mattered, because they are lost, there
is nothing that can be done to save them.
 
This is an interesting point. Is God into intimidation and domination, "I am God you punny man!!!"

Everything I read about the Lord is the opposite. Adam falls from grace, and is hiding. The Lord just asks where he is. He then prepares Adam and Eve for their future life.

Peter,

What does the sovereignty of God mean?

See Rom 11:22; Psalm 115:3; Prov 16:9.

Oz
 
Peter,

What does the sovereignty of God mean?

See Rom 11:22; Psalm 115:3; Prov 16:9.

Oz

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:22

Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
Psalm 115:3

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Prov 16:9

God has always been sovereign. It is through His behaviour that we discern
His will and His ways.

Judgement that the Lord brought Korah was dramatic and direct.
The ground opened and swallowed Korah, and the people offering coals were
literally burnt up. God simply removed them from Israel, no torture or slow punishment,
or reducing their rights etc.

Listen to Pauls argument with the Athenians,

Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill.
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-32

The argument about sovereignty is used to say often if God desires to torture all sinners
in hell for all eternity, that is His right. This is true. The question is simply is this what God
declares.

It would appear not so, rather He brings justice, where a mortal life lived how the
people desire ends in their destruction. They are chaff and are simply burned up. Their rebellion
is in ignorance and disbelief, and they will receive what they do not expect. Listen to every culture
and you will see the hope of a resolved reality after death, even though they have no reason to
expect such a thing.

Personally my fear in approaching this subject, is because I did not know the foundations and
arguments, and wondered how it would work out. But I desire truth and to walk in faith, knowing
my Lord and His love.

Let us put the doctrine into context. A child born to an unbelieving home, without any contact to
the Lord or His church. How should this childs fate be judged? Many children die in this state and
historically was the common experience, with 1 in 3 making it to adult years. Do you believe God
will torment these children in fire, for sins they are not aware of or have any reference points that
make sense? For some condemnation before the age of responsibility is too hard an idea. Paul
answers this question by saying children are deemed Holy by the believing parent, so are saved even
though they do not have personal faith themselves. So Paul knows of this problem and agrees there
is no hope for children of unbelievers. So is this your position? Have you got kids and where is your
love?
 
This is an interesting point. Is God into intimidation and domination, "I am God you punny man!!!"

Everything I read about the Lord is the opposite. Adam falls from grace, and is hiding. The Lord
just asks where he is. He then prepares Adam and Eve for their future life.

The parable of the prodigal son, is you are allowed to leave and abuse the blessing one has, but
God is always waiting for the return and to bring blessing when and if this happens.

Jesus comes to meet the repentant humble soul and heal them.
God is patient with Israel and could destroy them but chooses to bring judgement and forgiveness.

Even to the church which is failing Jesus says

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."
Rev 3:20-21

Judgement is not a time of vengance or domination, but great sadness, justice, truth and bringing
the consequences of peoples lives to bear on them.
So what people who rebel against God actually think has never mattered, because they are lost, there
is nothing that can be done to save them.
I'd call this vengeance and it ain't gonna be a pretty sight for those who rejected the free gift of salvation paid for and offered by our Lord with his very life .. Like they used to say at closing time ''you don't have to go home but you can't stay here''

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
King James Version (KJV)
 
Papa,

D+ but with some significant reservations. I'm a tough marker!

Why do you want to narrow God down to one characteristic when he has many characteristics / attributes?

See Wayne Grudem, The Communicable Attributes of God.

Oz

I don't really want to narrow God down. I want to try to understand Him in a better way and the aspect of His love sticks out for me. That said, I will check out that link. I took a quick peek and it looks good.

I will say that I recognize that God has many characteristics and I don't want to diminish the importance of any of those. But my initial thought of God in thinking of His nature is that He's relational. Before the creation God was relating in the Trinitarian God-head in a perfect love and mutual admiration for each of the persons in the Trinity. Of course I'm really just trying to understand something that is infinite from my little finite perspective. ;)
 
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