Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[JLB]

We don't have language sufficient to describe a place we cannot comprehend

Totally agree!

 

[Razeontherock]

There is good reason to think that if he was going to be burned up, and thus ceasing to exist, he would have done so, showing that the flames of hell being of a different nature, had a different result of impact upon spiritual matter.

It is a leap in logic to extrapolate ECT from this event, where the rich man is shown. Turning it into doctrine? 2 of the 5 original schools of theology did not. There has never been consensus on this. I don't see how we today are going to get closer to Jesus' meaning than they were.

JohnDB's post makes a lot of sense, and I note that you liked it.

 

[Free]

Gehinnom , in the Hebrew, Gehenna in the Greek and meaning lake of fire,was the valley outside of Jerusalem. Ge Hinnom "the Valley of Hinnom, that place where fires burned continuously to consume city waste and the bodies of dead criminals who were consumed by the fires there. The grave of the poor and the executed criminals where they were destroyed by what was everlasting fire. It was used in Jesus parable often used to defend the existence of eternal Hell, the parable of the rich man, as mentioned prior.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Jesus uses Hades, not Gehenna.

Sheol (sic)"While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone,[4] and is equated with Gehenna in the Talmud.[5] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol. This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.[4] "

Yes, I know. Gehenna is not Hades, it is not the grave.

I don't think it has ever been murky for readers. Yes, you reiterate there what was previously stated when you refer to fear of God. Who can destroy the body and soul. Destruction precludes preservation.

I reiterated it because you argued to context to say that Jesus point "was to inform the destiny of the unredeemed who suffer the second death if they die in their sins," which is incorrect. The context shows that Jesus point is what I have stated.

 

[JLB]

It is a leap in logic to extrapolate ECT from this event, where the rich man is shown. Turning it into doctrine? 2 of the 5 original schools of theology did not. There has never been consensus on this. I don't see how we today are going to get closer to Jesus' meaning than they were.

JohnDB's post makes a lot of sense, and I note that you liked it.

Can you at least agree that Jesus said the rich man was in hell and in torment in the flame of fire?

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
Luke 16:24


If we can’t agree on the plain words of Jesus then so be it, I will leave you with your theory.


Be blessed.


JLB

 

[tim-from-pa]

The penalty for sin (as Paul clearly stated) is death. It makes no sense that the price paid to cover sin is eternal torment in a fire. In other words, to pay for my own sins (outside of Christ) would not be eternal torment. You can't have an eternal price to pay for a temporal sin because sin is temporal and will be destroyed. That's Greek and pagan thinking about eternal life in a fire. Otherwise, it would not be death, but eternal life in torment. "Eternal Fire" is not straightforward in our language. The language is describing the action of the fire. In the English vernacular, we'd say "burned up forever". In short, no chance of a resurrection again. The bible plainly teaches (John 5 Christ's own words) that all people will be resurrected. Daniel says some to life and some to damnation. If it's to life, then one is raised a spirit being (aka the church). But if it's for judgement, or worse, for condemnation, it's physical as there are countless bible passages about a physical resurrection (see Ezekiel 37). If that person does not become saved, they are then again destroyed in a fire, otherwise called the second death. The fire is the means to destroy them, not a topic of an eternal state.This indeed is eternal fire and eternal damnation, because such a person has no chance ever again to live. It's forever. If anyone wants the scriptures that point out to what I am saying, just ask. I think I gave enough illustrations to find them oneself. Oh..... and before one throws back the rich man and Lazarus, let me state this was a parable. Why did Jesus speak in parables? The reason was so that people could not understand and thus be saved. So be careful. The very fact that some are using this parable to establish doctrine shows the falling into a trap that Jesus was laying. Indeed, even if that did talk about a fire, the parable does not indicate how long this would go on. It only is showing the man's fear of it and the resulting torment. I won't disagree with that. I'm sure one caught in a car fire from an accident is fearful and tormenting, too, that nobody wants to experience.

 

[Free]

The penalty for sin (as Paul clearly stated) is death.

What is 'death'? Jesus said to "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matt 8:22, ESV). Also, Paul seems to be referring to the second death, the lake of fire, which really doesn't address the issue of what that means.

It makes no sense that the price paid to cover sin is eternal torment in a fire. In other words, to pay for my own sins (outside of Christ) would not be eternal torment. You can't have an eternal price to pay for a temporal sin because sin is temporal and will be destroyed. That's Greek and pagan thinking about eternal life in a fire. Otherwise, it would not be death, but eternal life in torment.

The bigger question, perhaps, is, "Is the rebellion against the eternal God and his sacrifice for us just a temporal sin"?

"Eternal Fire" is not straightforward in our language. The language is describing the action of the fire. In the English vernacular, we'd say "burned up forever". In short, no chance of a resurrection again. The bible plainly teaches (John 5 Christ's own words) that all people will be resurrected. Daniel says some to life and some to damnation. If it's to life, then one is raised a spirit being (aka the church). But if it's for judgement, or worse, for condemnation, it's physical as there are countless bible passages about a physical resurrection (see Ezekiel 37).

Everyone is raised physically and we remain physical, albeit changed. That is the teaching of Scripture.

If that person does not become saved, they are then again destroyed in a fire, otherwise called the second death. The fire is the means to destroy them, not a topic of an eternal state.This indeed is eternal fire and eternal damnation, because such a person has no chance ever again to live. It's forever. If anyone wants the scriptures that point out to what I am saying, just ask. I think I gave enough illustrations to find them oneself.

That the fire "is a means to destroy" isn't the issue; it's what does "destroy" mean.

 

[tim-from-pa]

What is 'death'? Jesus said to "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matt 8:22, ESV). Also, Paul seems to be referring to the second death, the lake of fire, which really doesn't address the issue of what that means.


The bigger question, perhaps, is, "Is the rebellion against the eternal God and his sacrifice for us just a temporal sin"?


Everyone is raised physically and we remain physical, albeit changed. That is the teaching of Scripture.


That the fire "is a means to destroy" isn't the issue; it's what does "destroy" mean.

So everything you presented here is not scriptural, but philosophical. In the last instance, "destroy", you attempt to redefine the word. That's something evangelicals lamented with the word "marriage". What does destroy mean? It means to destroy. Period.

 

[Free]

So everything you presented here is not scriptural, but philosophical.

No, I clearly presented Scripture. Is it inconvenient to your position, is that why you didn't address it?

In the last instance, "destroy", you attempt to redefine the word. That's something evangelicals lamented with the word "marriage". What does destroy mean? It means to destroy. Period.

I have attempted to redefine nothing. I wish things were so easy but you're smuggling in your assumption of what "destroy" means. Looking at the possibilities:

Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

The definition you are so adamant about is but one definition of many. In Matt 10:28, "destroy" could very well mean "render useless" or "to be lost or ruined". Would that not fit well with the following?

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Do you not find it interesting that "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in hell?

Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (ESV)

Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
...
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

Again, "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the "outer darkness" and "fiery furnace". How does that work if people are destroyed in the sense you are using it?

And how do degrees of punishment after the judgment work if people are destroyed in the sense you are using it?

Perhaps a little more studying before being so sure of your position and putting down others would be of benefit.

 

[JLB]

Indeed, even if that did talk about a fire, the parable does not indicate how long this would go on. It only is showing the man's fear of it and the resulting torment. I won't disagree with that. I'm sure one caught in a car fire from an accident is fearful and tormenting, too, that nobody wants to experience.

The man was asking Abraham for just a drop of water.

He was conversing with Abraham, about going back to warn his family about that place.

Do you honestly see any evidence in this passage that would lead you to believe that he was being consumed in the fire to the point of extinction.

Please be aware that I’m not asking you about pagan mythology or the opinions of others about this passage.

I am simply asking you about the words of Jesus as He explained the incident, especially in light of the other words about this subject that I posted so as not to think I’m attempting to make a doctrine solely on this scripture.


The other scriptures from Jesus about the subject, that I quoted.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41.

• into the everlasting fire

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

• these will go away into everlasting punishment,

 

[stovebolts]

The grave is Hades, not Gehenna; the Bible never equates the two. Gehenna is the final destination of the unrighteous, the lake of fire, better known Hell
]

Actually, Ghenna is a Hebrew word which its idea originated with Solomon.
Hades comes from Greek mythology. You may recall that Zues had a brother Hades. His underworld abode was called Hades and its deepest darkest realm was Tartarus.

In Revelation, Hades and Death get thrown into the Lake of Fire. I am curious how you link the Lake of Fire with Gehenna.

Thapto is Greek for grave / tomb.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5028: τάφος

τάφος, τάφου, ὁ (θάπτω);
1. burial (so from Homer down).

2. a grave, sepulchre (so from Hesioddown): Matthew 23:27, 29; Matthew 27:61, 64, 66; Matthew 28:1; in a comparison: τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁλάρυγξ αὐτῶν, their speech threatens destruction to others, it is death to someone whenever they open their mouth, Romans 3:13. The Sept. for קֶבֶר; and sometimes for קְבוּרָה.

 

[Free]

Actually, Ghenna is a Hebrew word which its idea originated with Solomon.
Hades comes from Greek mythology. You may recall that Zues had a brother Hades. His underworld abode was called Hades and its deepest darkest realm was Tartarus.

In Revelation, Hades and Death get thrown into the Lake of Fire. I am curious how you link the Lake of Fire with Gehenna.

Thapto is Greek for grave / tomb.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5028: τάφος

τάφος, τάφου, ὁ (θάπτω);
1. burial (so from Homer down).

2. a grave, sepulchre (so from Hesioddown): Matthew 23:27, 29; Matthew 27:61, 64, 66; Matthew 28:1; in a comparison: τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁλάρυγξ αὐτῶν, their speech threatens destruction to others, it is death to someone whenever they open their mouth, Romans 3:13. The Sept. for קֶבֶר; and sometimes for קְבוּרָה.

Jesus used Gehenna only of the final destination of unbelievers, a place of fire, and the one place to avoid at all costs. Those points all line up quite nicely with what we know of the lake of fire.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus used Gehenna only of the final destination of unbelievers, a place of fire, and the one place to avoid at all costs. Those points all line up quite nicely with what we know of the lake of fire.

Can you support that with scripture and a proper exegesis? With Ghenna, a good understanding of the origin, geographical location and history from an OT, Jewish perspective would work best if you can provide that.

 

[chessman]

Do you honestly see any evidence in this passage that would lead you to believe that he was being consumed in the fire to the point of extinction.

Where’s your evidence he had received his final judgment, versus being reserved for the day of judgment?

then the Lord knows- how to deliver godly ones from a trial and reserve unrighteous ones for the day of judgment while being punished,​

2 Peter 2:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:9&version=DLNT

 

[Free]

Can you support that with scripture and a proper exegesis?

I have done it in the past, somewhere in these forums. I thought the Scriptures were rather obvious. Almost every translation uses “Hell” for Gehenna.

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
...
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
...
Mat 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

(All ESV.)

Given that Death and Hades (the grave) are thrown into the lake of fire, as well as anyone whose name isn’t in the book of life, the logical conclusion is that Gehenna is the lake of fire. It is consistent with what Jesus said.

With Ghenna, a good understanding of the origin, geographical location and history from an OT, Jewish perspective would work best if you can provide that.

I really don’t see how this would be relevant. If Jesus used Gehenna as the final destination of the unrighteous, a place of fire, a place of punishment, and a place to avoid at all costs, and he did, then that is how he used it and the origin really doesn’t matter.

 

[UberMink]

I wanted to clarify this post that was edited entirely of my contribution , as it appears above but is unable to be edited so as to restore that. As were, by proof of the red text indicating moderator alteration of my posts.
There was no initial error in my postings here. Though evidence of that has been destroyed.

Thank you. :biggrin God's mercies , protection, and peace surround his people here.

Other than Gehenna is not translated as "lake of fire," I know all of that. You said Gehenna was the grave; I pointed out that it is not. So I don't see how you're addressing your initial error.


Here is the context:

Matt 10:16-25 is about coming persecution. <--This is what the "them" in verse 26 is referring to--those doing the persecuting.

Mat 10:26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (ESV)

The rest of the chapter is about persecution, following Him at all costs, and receiving one's reward for doing so.

Again, it cannot be more clear that Jesus's point is to not fear man but rather fear God.

[edited]

 

[Free]

I wanted to clarify this post that was edited entirely of my contribution , as it appears above but is unable to be edited so as to restore that. As were, by proof of the red text indicating moderator alteration of my posts.
There was no initial error in my postings here. Though evidence of that has been destroyed.

Thank you. :biggrin God's mercies , protection, and peace surround his people here.

 

[UberMink]

You can’t really go by the English definition of a word for gathering nuance on meaning in the original Greek.

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:
DESTROY (in Matthew 10:28) = apollymi = STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι

I've already posted one reply to this so to save space I edited to add additional information.

Aramaic/English Translation:
Matthew 10:26"Therefore you shall not be afraid of them, for there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden, that will not be known." 27"Whatever I tell you in the darkness, say it in the light, and whatever you hear with your ears, preach on the rooftops." 28"And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna."

Strong's◄ 2255. chabal ►
chabal: to destroy, hurt
Original Word: חֲבַל
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chabal
Phonetic Spelling: (khab-al')
Short Definition: destroyed
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
(Aramaic) corresponding to chabal

 

[stovebolts]

I have done it in the past, somewhere in these forums. I thought the Scriptures were rather obvious. Almost every translation uses “Hell”
...
I really don’t see how this would be relevant. If Jesus used Gehenna as the final destination of the unrighteous, a place of fire, a place of punishment, and a place to avoid at all costs, and he did, then that is how he used it and the origin really doesn’t matter.

We are both students of the Bible and can learn much from one another.
We both know that the word Hell comes from Norse mythology and was used almost exclusively for both Hades and Ghenna.
We both understand that it is difficult to read scrioture void of our own culture, and those that translated were no exception. As students, if we are going to discuss the topic of Hell, let us dig deep because Dantes Inferno was not what Jesus was talking about, and that's not what his Jewish listeners heard.

As students of the Holy scriptures, we owe it to each other to be good students. This means we try to hear the message being spoken as if we were there ourselves.

Ghenna has deep roots in Israel's history, and it starts with Solomon. Every Jew, even today understands this because they understand Deuteronomy 17:14-20. Not only that, but they understood the depths of Exodus to which these echo. It's about exile.
Contrast that with 1st Kings 9 - 11, and you have the birthing of Ghenna. Emphasis specifically on 1 Kings 11:3-8. I encourage you to study these gods.. do a quick search in your bible software, then read some ANE texts to get a better idea...

Start here, and dig into the Jewish culture and biblical history on the valley of Hinnom, etc and you will begin to hear properly what Jesus was saying to his Jewish audience.

I hope you will appreciate your studies and dig deep into these matters.

 

[tim-from-pa]

No, I clearly presented Scripture. Is it inconvenient to your position, is that why you didn't address it?


I have attempted to redefine nothing. I wish things were so easy but you're smuggling in your assumption of what "destroy" means. Looking at the possibilities:

Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

The definition you are so adamant about is but one definition of many. In Matt 10:28, "destroy" could very well mean "render useless" or "to be lost or ruined". Would that not fit well with the following?

Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Do you not find it interesting that "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in hell?

Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (ESV)

Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
...
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

Again, "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the "outer darkness" and "fiery furnace". How does that work if people are destroyed in the sense you are using it?

And how do degrees of punishment after the judgment work if people are destroyed in the sense you are using it?

Perhaps a little more studying before being so sure of your position and putting down others would be of benefit.

Actually, I did a lot of study, and I am one who is my own worst critic. Unlike most, I am willing to change my position and say I am wrong about something--- I have done that already. That said, I used to believe in eternal torment and one day it dawned on me that I was wrong -- the scriptures did not make sense with that. So I know all the arguments beforehand. The whole doctrine rests on the immortality of the soul doctrine. No, we are not immortal. We live, we die, and then sleep until resurrected which is the person's next conscious moment. Only God is inherently immortal.

Now, let's just pick one word you used. Destroy. Destroy means destroy, perish, gone. Instead there's a list there that tells me what the word ought to mean. Actually, except for 1e, which is a clear deviation and attempt to redefine the word, the rest looks generally OK. I'm curious, if we really turn off our bias, how one can possibly interpret the word destroy, perish or death to be an eternal existence in torment? Then they did not perish, die nor were destroyed. They are only getting eternal punishing and must be conscious and alive to be aware enough that they are getting punished. Only the living know they will die, the dead on the other hand know nothing.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi tim-from-pa
I've always enjoyed learning and conversing with you. I remember when you and Vic taught me about passover dates and the Lords crucifiction.

I was curious about your post above. Are you referring to the second death spoken about in Revelation 20 and 21?