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Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

If the destruction is everlasting, the it continues forever.

If the punishment is everlasting, then it continues forever.


We certainly know the fire is everlasting.



JLB
The grave would have to be everlasting so as to receive new bodies and souls for destruction. Everlasting punishment is true. A place of everlasting punishment since it will receive new souls that suffer the second death. The grave, Gehenna, is a place everlasting.

There is nothing in scripture that says the individual's punishment is everlasting and in fire. The scripture refers to everlasting punishment.
The destruction is not forever. I shared, copied, the scripture that tells us this. The abode is Gehenna, which is the grave.
The scripture proves it is not possible for punishment to be eternal for those who suffer the second death because if that were the case then Matthew 10:28 would be false.
It is not.

Eternal punishment in the grave is destruction body and soul. To exist no more.

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ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi)
Strong: G622
GK: G660
to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, be deprived of, Mt. 10:42; to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat10.pdf
 
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How long does something that's destroyed last?
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL” (Matthew 10:28).
You can’t really go by the English definition of a word for gathering nuance on meaning in the original Greek.

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:
DESTROY (in Matthew 10:28) = apollymi = STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι
ἀπόλλυμι and ἀπολλύω ((ἀπολλύει John 12:25 T Tr WH), imperative ἀπόλλυε Romans 14:15 (cf. Buttmann, 45 (39); WH's Appendix, p. 168f)); future ἀπολέσωand (1 Corinthians 1:19 ἀπολῶ from a passage in the O. T., where often) ἀπολῶ (cf. Winers Grammar, 83 (80); (Buttmann, 64 (56))); 1 aorist ἀπώλεσα; to destroy; middle, present ἀπόλλυμαι; (imperfect 3 person plural ἀπώλλυντο1 Corinthians 10:9 T Tr WH); future ἀπολοῦμαι; 2 aorist ἀπωλόμην; (2 perfect active participle ἀπολωλώς); (from Homer down); to perish.
1. to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin: Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Luke 17:27, 29; Jude 1:5; τήν σοφίαν render useless, cause its emptiness to be perceived, 1 Corinthians 1:19 (from the Sept. of Isaiah 29:14); to kill: Matthew 2:13; Matthew 12:14; Mark 9:22; Mark 11:18; John 10:10, etc.; contextually, to declare that one must be put to death: Matthew 27:20; metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery: Matthew 10:28; James 4:12; contextually, by one's conduct to cause another to lose eternal salvation: Romans 14:15. Middle to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed;
a. of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.; ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐν μαχαρια, Matthew 26:52; καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκ ἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), John 3:16; John 10:28; 17:12 (it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).
b. of things; to be blotted out, to vanish away: ἡ εὐπρέπεια, James 1:11; the heavens, Hebrews 1:11 (from Psalm 101:27 (Ps. 102:27); to perish — "of things which on being thrown away are decomposed, as μέλος τοῦ σώματος, Matthew 5:29f; remnants of bread, John 6:12; — or which perish in some other way, as βρῶσις, John 6:27; χρυσίον, 1 Peter 1:7; — or which are mined so that they can no longer subserve the use for which they were designed, as οἱ ἀσκοί: Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37.
2. to destroy i. e. to lose;
a. properly: Matthew 10:42; Mark 9:41 (τόν μισθόν αὐτοῦ); Luke 15:4, 8, 9; Luke 9:25; Luke 17:33; John 12:25; 2 John 1:8, etc.
b. metaphorically, Christ is said to lose anyone of his followers (whom the Father has drawn to discipleship) if such a one becomes wicked and fails of salvation: John 6:39, cf. John 18:9. Middle to be lost: θρίξ ἐκ τῆς κεφαλῆς, Luke 21:18; θρίξἀπό τῆς κεφαλῆς, Acts 27:34 (Rec. πεσεῖται); τά λαμπρά ἀπώλετο ἀπό σου, Revelation 18:14 (Rec. ἀπῆλθε). Used of sheep, straying from the flock: properly, Luke 15:4 (τό ἀπολωλός, in Matthew 18:12 τό πλανώμενον). Metaphorically, in accordance with the O. T. comparison of the people of Israel to a flock (Jeremiah 27:6 (Jer. 50:6); Ezekiel 34:4, 16), the Jews, neglected by their religious teachers, left to themselves and thereby in danger of losing eternal salvation, wandering about as it were without guidance, are called τά πρόβατα τά ἀπολωλότα τοῦ οἴκου Ἰσραήλ: Matthew 10:6; Matthew 15:24 (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:25); and Christ, reclaiming them from wickedness, is likened to a shepherd and is said ζητεῖν καί σῴζειν τό ἀπολωλός: Luke 19:10; Matthew 18:11 Rec.(Compare: συναπόλλυμι.)
 
You can’t really go by the English definition of a word for gathering nuance on meaning in the original Greek.
[] *Edited because of a character limit when trying to reply
I think you missed what I wrote and shared from the Greek Interlinear Bible that I linked. And from the Greek Lexicon as pertains to the word, ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi) , destroy.
The New Testament's original language was Greek. Written from the oration of Hebrew and or Aramaic.
English is many times removed . The Greek , Hebrew, Aramaic, would apply first and foremost and in order of Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, English.
 
The grave would have to be everlasting so as to receive new bodies and souls for destruction

??

The physical body s not what we are discussing.

Everlasting punishment is true.

Yes agreed.
There is nothing in scripture that says the individual's punishment is everlasting and in fire.

I really don’t want to keep posting the same scriptures over and over, so this will be the last time.

Please just read the words of scripture spoken by Jesus.


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

  • Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire

The fire that these are cast into is everlasting.


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

  • these will go away into everlasting punishment,

The punishment of being cast into the everlasting fire, is everlasting.


Everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire.


Very, very straightforward and plain and clear.




JLB
 
??

The physical body s not what we are discussing.
That is what Matthew 10:28 is discussing. Yes, this will be the last time. Matthew 10 and verse 28 are very clear and concise.
It is fascinating that you insist on eternal everlasting fire and punishment in Hell but in the past objected to the, shall we say so as to keep within the rules, the eternal always counterpart.
Unfortunate really, however, Emmanuel knew precisely what he meant in Matthew.

The soul that sinneth shall die.

 
That is what Matthew 10:28 is discussing. Yes, this will be the last time. Matthew 10 and verse 28 are very clear and concise.
It is fascinating that you insist on eternal everlasting fire and punishment in Hell but in the past objected to the, shall we say so as to keep within the rules, the eternal always counterpart.
Unfortunate really, however, Emmanuel knew precisely what he meant in Matthew.

The soul that sinneth shall die.


I see you didn’t acknowledge or comment on the scriptures I gave that plainly show Everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire.


Matthew 10:28 only refers to the act of destruction, which is not contested at all.

The discussion is about how long the punishment of destruction shall last.


The verse I posted clearly address that length of time of punishment of destruction.

Everlasting.


I asked you guys this question and was never answered.


How long had the rich man been tormented in the fire?

Notice that he did not cease to exist.



JLB
 
How long had the rich man been tormented in the fire, when Jesus told the parable? This is not a good basis from which to extrapolate ECT. The answer is necessarily less than forever.
 
I see you didn’t acknowledge or comment on the scriptures I gave that plainly show Everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire.


Matthew 10:28 only refers to the act of destruction, which is not contested at all.

The discussion is about how long the punishment of destruction shall last.


The verse I posted clearly address that length of time of punishment of destruction.

Everlasting.


I asked you guys this question and was never answered.


How long had the rich man been tormented in the fire?

Notice that he did not cease to exist.



JLB
Matthew 10:28 puts to rest any attempt by anyone to revoke what Emmanuel God stated about the flesh and soul's destruction. Destruction is not redefined by mortals when God decreed its meaning in his own words.

To move forward to Lazarus and the rich man parable. Likely the reason no one addressed that is because it is immaterial to this discourse. The parable of the rich man is a polemic addressing hypocrisy. Though it is often used to describe the Sheography of Sheol.
In reality the verses in Luke 16 do not actually pertain to that.

Because the particulars are detailed I will not contribute to what is inevitably a rebuke of those truths. Instead I shall post a link to a detailed article that provides scripture and context to reiterate my observations. I've enjoyed this article in my file for nearly a year now. I share now to and for those interested in this topic. God's mercies and peace surround you who seek after the Lord's truth. Amen.


Hypocrisy, Not Hell: The Polemic Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man
 
How long had the rich man been tormented in the fire, when Jesus told the parable? This is not a good basis from which to extrapolate ECT. The answer is necessarily less than forever.
:amen

Don't forget John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever believeth in him shall not perish but have immortal life.

And of course recall the scriptural reference and meaning of, second death.

◄ Ezekiel 18 ►
18:3.As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.
 
The grave, Gehenna, is a place everlasting.

There is nothing in scripture that says the individual's punishment is everlasting and in fire. The scripture refers to everlasting punishment.
The destruction is not forever. I shared, copied, the scripture that tells us this. The abode is Gehenna, which is the grave.
The grave is Hades, not Gehenna; the Bible never equates the two. Gehenna is the final destination of the unrighteous, the lake of fire, better known as Hell.

The scripture proves it is not possible for punishment to be eternal for those who suffer the second death because if that were the case then Matthew 10:28 would be false.
It is not.

Eternal punishment in the grave is destruction body and soul. To exist no more.
Matt 10:28 only says that God is able not that he will. Jesus's whole point here is that men are not nearly as powerful as God, and so God is to be feared, not men.

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The grave is Hades, not Gehenna; the Bible never equates the two. Gehenna is the final destination of the unrighteous, the lake of fire, better known as Hell.
Gehenna is figurative in scripture and is always translated as Hell, or, lake of fire. And is the eternal place of punishment and destruction for Satan and his angels and those who die in their sin.

Matt 10:28 only says that God is able not that he will. Jesus's whole point here is that men are not nearly as powerful as God, and so God is to be feared, not men.
Emmanuel's point there in context was to inform the destiny of the unredeemed who suffer the second death if they die in their sins. Rather than live eternally in the grace gift of God.

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Gehenna is figurative in scripture and is always translated as Hell, or, lake of fire. And is the eternal place of punishment and destruction for Satan and his angels and those who die in their sin.
Other than Gehenna is not translated as "lake of fire," I know all of that. You said Gehenna was the grave; I pointed out that it is not. So I don't see how you're addressing your initial error.

Emmanuel's point there in context was to inform the destiny of the unredeemed who suffer the second death if they die in their sins. Rather than live eternally in the grace gift of God.
Here is the context:

Matt 10:16-25 is about coming persecution. <--This is what the "them" in verse 26 is referring to--those doing the persecuting.

Mat 10:26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (ESV)

The rest of the chapter is about persecution, following Him at all costs, and receiving one's reward for doing so.

Again, it cannot be more clear that Jesus's point is to not fear man but rather fear God.

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Gehinnom , in the Hebrew, Gehenna in the Greek and meaning lake of fire,was the valley outside of Jerusalem. Ge Hinnom "the Valley of Hinnom, that place where fires burned continuously to consume city waste and the bodies of dead criminals who were consumed by the fires there. The grave of the poor and the executed criminals where they were destroyed by what was everlasting fire. It was used in Jesus parable often used to defend the existence of eternal Hell, the parable of the rich man, as mentioned prior.

Sheol (sic)"While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone,[4] and is equated with Gehenna in the Talmud.[5] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol. This is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.[4] "

Here is the context:

Matt 10:16-25 is about coming persecution. <--This is what the "them" in verse 26 is referring to--those doing the persecuting.

Mat 10:26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (ESV)

The rest of the chapter is about persecution, following Him at all costs, and receiving one's reward for doing so.

Again, it cannot be more clear that Jesus's point is to not fear man but rather fear God.
I don't think it has ever been murky for readers. Yes, you reiterate there what was previously stated when you refer to fear of God. Who can destroy the body and soul. Destruction precludes preservation.


Of course. At least I can admit it.
After you were countered in your attempt to impart my understanding is incorrect.
But at this point my interpretation is looking much stronger and more likely to be correct.
We shall see.
 
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Matthew 10:28 puts to rest any attempt by anyone to revoke what Emmanuel God stated about the flesh and soul's destruction.

First of all, I have seen no one try to “revoke” anything Jesus said about the destruction of the body and soul in hell.

It’s very clear that the body and soul are destroyed in hell.


Secondly, their is no mention of “flesh” being destroyed in hell, those are your words.


The destruction of the body and soul is evident.


The length of the destruction is not mentioned in Matthew 10:28.


The verse I posted clearly address that length of time of punishment of destruction.

Everlasting.


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

  • Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire

The fire that these are cast into is everlasting.


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

  • these will go away into everlasting punishment,

The punishment of being cast into the everlasting fire, is everlasting.


Everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire.


Matthew 25:41,46 puts to rest any attempt to revoke what Jesus said about the time of the punishment of destruction in the everlasting fire.




JLB
 
To move forward to Lazarus and the rich man parable. Likely the reason no one addressed that is because it is immaterial to this discourse. The parable of the rich man is a polemic addressing hypocrisy. Though it is often used to describe the Sheography of Sheol.
In reality the verses in Luke 16 do not actually pertain to that.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Luke 16:22-31

  • Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Luke 16:24 puts to rest any attempt by anyone to revoke what Emmanuel God said about ceasing to exist in torment in hell.

Since Jesus stated and referred to specific people by name, and their specific condition, whether torment or comfort in Abraham’s Bosom, then it is to believed as truth, and not rejected as fable.



JLB
 
How long had the rich man been tormented in the fire, when Jesus told the parable? This is not a good basis from which to extrapolate ECT. The answer is necessarily less than forever.

The point being that the rich man had not ceased to exist, so far in the flame, in which he still had his faculties of sense and awareness of his situation, as well as being able to have concern for his family, indication he had not disminished in capacity to formulate both thought and words of communication, while being tormented in the flames of hell.

There is good reason to think that if he was going to be burned up, and thus ceasing to exist, he would have done so, showing that the flames of hell being of a different nature, had a different result of impact upon spiritual matter.

Likewise the fire from the Angel of the Lord, also not consuming the natural tree when He appeared to Moses in the desert, showing us that spiritual fire has different properties that natural fire.




JLB
 
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Will God show this powerful ability to do what Matt 10:28 says He is able to do?

Yes.

The destruction is everlasting, as the fire is everlasting, as well as the punishment is everlasting.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

  • Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire

The fire that these are cast into is everlasting.


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46



JLB
 
God is in time but not constrained by it. This 4th dimension is going to be way beyond anything that we can understand...

A line of computer programming is two dimensional. Off or on is all it knows. And yet it exists in a 3 dimensional world where there exists such things as sight, sound, smells, and degrees of everything. Now where there is an exponentially larger and complex world we live in vx a two dimensional how much moreso does God live in a place where He travels beyond dimensional boundaries...and yet to be with Him face to face is beyond understanding.

So too must be the absence of God....Beyond understanding.

Is eternal torment a hyperbolic metaphor for how bad Hell really is?
Dunno... and I will not be able to say even if I did. We don't have language sufficient to describe a place we cannot comprehend. If we cannot comprehend Heaven we cannot comprehend Hell.
But to me the important thing isn't that I am escaping judgement but that I'm going to Heaven. Positive rewards for positive behaviors... and delayed substantial gratification for substantial amount of suffering.

Fear of punishment... only works for short term goals. Most people don't respond to a "lack of punishment" as a reward.

I can understand why Jesus would talk about destroying the Earth... after all He made it. And I am sure that the message we have made of it is probably disgusting Him and He wants to put it back straight.
 
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