Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[JLB]

The passage doesn’t say the torment is everlasting.

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:11


What is the source of the smoke mentioned in verse 11?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

The NT does not add anything to the OT and I hope that's not what you meant. It may reveal something that was hidden, but the foundation is still there in the OT. There's no addendums in other words. All the NT scripture came from the OT. Moses and Elijah are still awaiting resurrection the way the rest are. The transfiguration was a vision of the future. Moses and Elijah were not and are not up there in heaven. (John 3:13, Hebrews 11:13)

tim,

The NT gives further revelation on more specifics of life after death. I'm leading a Bible study and the participants asked for teaching on life after death as they said they don't hear much from the pulpit.

The topic that I'm currently working through - with lots of discussion - is "What the Bible teaches about life after death: The Old Testament". Because of progressive revelation, God didn't give us all the information about what happens after death in the OT. He didn't give it to us in one dollop (we use dollops of cream on sweet things in Australia).

So, what we learn of the after-life is quite brief in the OT. I've only put a small portion of the teaching on my home page. See: Torment in Old Testament hell? The meaning of Sheol in the OT.

I also recommend this summary article: Where did Old Testament believers go when they died? (GotQuestions).

Oz

 

[chessman]

There are verses that are impossible to square with destruction meaning annihilation. Second Thessalonians 1:9 is one of those barriers. It reads, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (ESV).

2 Thess 1:9 is entirely compatible with the wicked’s final punishment being their eternal destruction. What the verse is incompatible with (obviously) is their punishment being not actually destroyed (which is why people try alternative meanings for the word to destroy). So you are right (obviously) that it first hinges the meaning of destruction. And yes, if they (their body and/or their soul) are eternally present in a location (i.e. not actually destroyed) then I get your point. It’s a point Greg Koukl has made in response to the view that their punishment really is the utter destruction of their body and soul.

Have you looked in depth at the literal Greek Text for this passage? Or compared the various English translations and more importantly why the translations vary? A literal translation is:

...who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength, ...​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

Their Penalty = eternal destruction
Their Penalty comes from the very presence of the Lamb’s glory/strength
Their Penalty occurs when He is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire (Eternal fire).
(The what, who, where and when)

since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus—​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-8&version=DLNT

V9 appears in the middle of one of Paul’s very long sentences (spanning from v3 to v12, almost the whole chapter other than the greeting in v1-2). V9 is a verse that’s crying to be read in context. So, let’s do that:

1.The sentence’s main subject is not even about the fate of the wicked, but rather how the brothers are (presently I should add) considered worthy of the Kingdom of God versus those causing their affiction being not considered worthy of God’s kingdom.

2. Paul says it’s righteous for God (who is the Lamb in this case, I should add) to “repay” the brothers affliction with “His strength” (His flaming fire, eternal fire, fire and brimstone, His full wrath, etc). Think of Matt 10:28 here (or any othere verse for that matter dealing with the final fate of the wicked). There is zero need to “isolate” any one particular verse from the entire Scripture and yet still believe that the destruction of the wicked (both body and soul) truly does occur. And HOW it occurs (from His strength). And when. And where.

I take the literal meaning of the verse, their destruction comes from His afflicting repayment to the wicked (those afficting the brothers, yet are simply not powerful enough to destroy the souls of the brothers). Their destruction (body and soul) comes “from” the strength of The Lamb (who is able to destroy both body and soul). It’s not about location but rather His power/glory/strength.

This verse creates the added problem against annihilation that the ungodly will be “away from the presence of the Lord”, which indicates that their existence is continuing but they will be shut out from being in God’s presence.

If the word “away” wasn’t in the ESV, would you think it’s a problem?

What is the Greek word for “away” appearing in the ESV/NIV translations from the literal Greek Text?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1.htm

 

[chessman]

What is the source of the smoke mentioned in verse 11?

The vision John was given of the hour of His full wrath (Judgment) coming upon the Beast worshippers who are alive at Christ’s second coming:

saying with a loud voice “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment came. [And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28 (DLNT). ]​

...​

he himself [Beast worshippers] will also drink from the wine of the fury of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.​

Revelation 14:7,10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:7,10&version=DLNT

I asked: “Do you believe the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever?”

You answered yes!

Yes.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The fire is everlasting.

I believe all of Matt 25:41, to include the fact that the cursed (those on the left hand) actually do depart from His presence.

Then He will also say to the ones on the left side, ‘Depart from Me, the ones having been cursed, into the eternal fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels.​

Matthew 25:41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:41&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

The vision John was given of the hour of His full wrath (Judgment) coming upon the Beast worshippers who are alive at Christ’s second coming:

saying with a loud voice “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment came. [And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28 (DLNT). ]...he himself [Beast worshippers] will also drink from the wine of the fury of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.Revelation 14:7,10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 14:7,10&version=DLNT

I asked: “Do you believe the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever?”

You answered yes!

Yes. I answered yes.

What’s your point?

Jesus and the holy angels are not the ones being punished or tormented.

The smoke of “their torment” arises forever and ever.

The smoke comes from their torment which is the fire.


There’s just no wiggle room here for some other interpretation that somehow redefines forever and ever, to mean ceases to exist.



9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe all of Matt 25:41, to include the fact that the cursed (those on the left hand) actually do depart from His presence.

Then He will also say to the ones on the left side, ‘Depart from Me, the ones having been cursed, into the eternal fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels.Matthew 25:41 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 25:41&version=DLNT

In context, Jesus is seated upon His throne, judging each according to their deeds, and removes those who have no fruit of love.
No righteous deeds.


Jesus sentences these to the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, away from Him.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


His presence is not mentioned in these verses.

Since He is Omnipresent, He is able to witness many things at the same time.


What is clear, is the fire of punishment and the punishment is everlasting.



JLB

 

[chessman]

What’s your point?

The Lamb is NOT present in Hell. Yet you have stated that you believe this torment occurs forever in His presence.
A clear contradiction between your view and the Texts. On my view, there is no condradiction with the Texts. None of them.

Jesus and the holy angels are not the ones being punished or tormented.

Precisely correct. Yet they are clearly present in Rev 14, indeed are there administering this torment upon all Beast worshippers alive at His return.

There’s just no wiggle room here for some other interpretation that somehow redefines forever and ever, to mean ceases to exist.

I haven’t even attempted to redefined forever and ever as meaning ceases to exist.

Forever and ever means forever and ever. Just as the destruction of the body and soul in Hell means exactly that.

 

[chessman]

Since He is Omnipresent,

Do you believe the risen Lamb of God is currently present in the tomb?

But the one says to them, “Do not be alarmed. You are seeking Jesus from-Nazareth, the One having been crucified. He arose, He is not here. Look— the place where they laid Him!​

Mark 16:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 16:6&version=DLNT

The One testifying these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly’”. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.​

Revelation 22:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 22:20&version=DLNT

If He’s omnipresent (the Lamb, the risen Christ, not the Holy Spirit) then why does John pray for His second coming?

 

[chessman]

and removes those who have no fruit of love.

Removes those standing on the left in His presence from His presence!

In context, Jesus is seated upon His throne, judging each according to their deeds, and removes those who have no fruit of love.

Removes those standing before Him, correct?

Jesus sentences these to the everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, away from Him.

Precisely. Jesus isn’t in Hell.

His presence is not mentioned in these verses.

Then how do you know He’s seated on His Throne if what you say here is true?

 

[JLB]

The Lamb is NOT present in Hell. Yet you have stated that you believe this torment occurs forever in His presence.
A clear contradiction between your view and the Texts. On my view, there is no condradiction with the Texts. None of them

Here is what I said.


And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


His presence is not mentioned in these verses.

Since He is Omnipresent, He is able to witness many things at the same time.


What is clear, is the fire of punishment and the punishment is everlasting.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The Lamb is NOT present in Hell. Yet you have stated that you believe this torment occurs forever in His presence.
A clear contradiction between your view and the Texts. On my view, there is no condradiction with the Texts. None of them.


Precisely correct. Yet they are clearly present in Rev 14, indeed are there administering this torment upon all Beast worshippers alive at His return.


I haven’t even attempted to redefined forever and ever as meaning ceases to exist.

Forever and ever means forever and ever. Just as the destruction of the body and soul in Hell means exactly that.

Removes those standing on the left in His presence from His presence!


Removes those standing before Him, correct?


Precisely. Jesus isn’t in Hell.


Then how do you know He’s seated on His Throne if what you say here is true?

The Lamb is NOT present in Hell. Yet you have stated that you believe this torment occurs forever in His presence.
A clear contradiction between your view and the Texts. On my view, there is no condradiction with the Texts. None of them.


Precisely correct. Yet they are clearly present in Rev 14, indeed are there administering this torment upon all Beast worshippers alive at His return.


I haven’t even attempted to redefined forever and ever as meaning ceases to exist.

Forever and ever means forever and ever. Just as the destruction of the body and soul in Hell means exactly that.

Nothing in any of these posts that have any relevance to the plain, irrefutable words of scripture.


The scriptures I posted several times now, show us the punishment and the fire and the torment is everlasting.


If you have some scriptures that show us the fire or torment or punishment is temporary then please post them, for discussion.



JLB

 

[Free]

Hebrews 11:13 says the opposite of what you just said, i.e. these all died....... even the ones not named due to constraints in the letter.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God (ESV)

So, in this very list that you state includes the death of all who are both contained and not contained in it, we see that it quite clearly states that Enoch did not die.

As for John 3:13, Jesus himself said no man ascended to heaven.

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (ESV)

So, when, exactly, did Jesus ascend to heaven?

Elijah was before Christ so that includes him.

2Ki 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (ESV)

It's looking more like perhaps Jesus isn't saying what you think he is saying, that perhaps it isn't so clear.

Some of your posts previously claim to allude to what Christ stated, and yet here he stated something clearly but your answer to that "keep in mind that Elijah did not die" .... Yeah he was taken up to heaven, but where (or which I should ask)? And could he have come back? Possibly. The bible is not clear on that, so Jesus cleared it up. Enoch also died.

I don't care if one is wrong about something, but at least stay consistent. You can't quote Jesus when it suits you and then when it comes to Elijah it does not matter. .

If you are going to suggest to someone else to be consistent, it's probably best if you do that as well. I think you need to not be so certain of your understanding of these passages. Language has many nuances and ancient writers used it even differently than we do. There are clear statements, but when there is a discrepancy, the answer is not always so clear.

 

[OzSpen]

2 Thess 1:9 is entirely compatible with the wicked’s final punishment being their eternal destruction. What the verse is incompatible with (obviously) is their punishment being not actually destroyed (which is why people try alternative meanings for the word to destroy). So you are right (obviously) that it first hinges the meaning of destruction. And yes, if they (their body and/or their soul) are eternally present in a location (i.e. not actually destroyed) then I get your point. It’s a point Greg Koukl has made in response to the view that their punishment really is the utter destruction of their body and soul.

Have you looked in depth at the literal Greek Text for this passage? Or compared the various English translations and more importantly why the translations vary? A literal translation is:

...who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength, ...​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

Their Penalty = eternal destruction
Their Penalty comes from the very presence of the Lamb’s glory/strength
Their Penalty occurs when He is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire (Eternal fire).
(The what, who, where and when)

since it will be a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to the ones afflicting you and to give you, the ones being afflicted, rest along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire, giving punishment to the ones not knowing God and the ones not obeying the good-news of our Lord Jesus—​

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:6-8&version=DLNT

V9 appears in the middle of one of Paul’s very long sentences (spanning from v3 to v12, almost the whole chapter other than the greeting in v1-2). V9 is a verse that’s crying to be read in context. So, let’s do that:

1.The sentence’s main subject is not even about the fate of the wicked, but rather how the brothers are (presently I should add) considered worthy of the Kingdom of God versus those causing their affiction being not considered worthy of God’s kingdom.

2. Paul says it’s righteous for God (who is the Lamb in this case, I should add) to “repay” the brothers affliction with “His strength” (His flaming fire, eternal fire, fire and brimstone, His full wrath, etc). Think of Matt 10:28 here (or any othere verse for that matter dealing with the final fate of the wicked). There is zero need to “isolate” any one particular verse from the entire Scripture and yet still believe that the destruction of the wicked (both body and soul) truly does occur. And HOW it occurs (from His strength). And when. And where.

I take the literal meaning of the verse, their destruction comes from His afflicting repayment to the wicked (those afficting the brothers, yet are simply not powerful enough to destroy the souls of the brothers). Their destruction (body and soul) comes “from” the strength of The Lamb (who is able to destroy both body and soul). It’s not about location but rather His power/glory/strength.


If the word “away” wasn’t in the ESV, would you think it’s a problem?

What is the Greek word for “away” appearing in the ESV/NIV translations from the literal Greek Text?

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/1.htm

chessman,

The problem with annihilation and 2 Thess 1:9 is that that doctrine is not compatible with the exegesis of the text in context and with the doctrine of the eternal destiny for unbelievers that is expounded throughout the NT.

Yes, I have done my exegesis and it is here. I've had it online since 2012:
2 Thessalonians 1:9: Eternal destruction.

Oz

 

[brujaq]

Perpetual destruction .. As in the rich man .. A state of eternal and everlasting being out of God's presence , true death without life .. Horror, hopelessness .. Losing forever the will or ability to ever call on or desire God ,spiritually dead , lost like the devil and his angels ..
We are bound to sin in the flesh , right ? We must perform it to fill the void in godlessness but in hell there will be no sins of the flesh to fall back on to false substitute for God, just sheer dissatisfaction .. It is Gods law that his Son pay the price and he means business ..

 

[artful horizon]

Perpetual destruction .. As in the rich man .. A state of eternal and everlasting being out of God's presence , true death without life .. Horror, hopelessness .. Losing forever the will or ability to ever call on or desire God ,spiritually dead , lost like the devil and his angels ..
We are bound to sin in the flesh , right ? We must perform it to fill the void in godlessness but in hell there will be no sins of the flesh to fall back on to false substitute for God, just sheer dissatisfaction .. It is Gods law that his Son pay the price and he means business ..

Question. That bold part there in your quote. What does that mean? I know the context as pertains to the first part, sin. What I mean to ask is can you defend your belief that we must perform sin to fill the void in godlessness?

 

[brujaq]

Question. That bold part there in your quote. What does that mean? I know the context as pertains to the first part, sin. What I mean to ask is can you defend your belief that we must perform sin to fill the void in godlessness?

Since Adam we all sin, no one can live sinless and please God, but One did Jesus .. We all sin and fall short no matter how close we think we may come .. We are bound to sin .. Sin gives us false gratification and that in our flesh that is a poor substitute for being in Gods presence .. We are created to exist and to live in Gods presence but when God withdraws his presence because of our sin then we are left with no alternative but to sin .

 

[artful horizon]

Since Adam we all sin, no one can live sinless and please God, but One did Jesus .. We all sin and fall short no matter how close we think we may come .. We are bound to sin .. Sin gives us false gratification and that in our flesh that is a poor substitute for being in Gods presence .. We are created to exist and to live in Gods presence but when God withdraws his presence because of our sin then we are left with no alternative but to sin .

God does not withdraw his presence from the Christian. Those who are in Christ do not sin.

 

[brujaq]

God does not withdraw his presence from the Christian. Those who are in Christ do not sin.

If you do not sin then you don't need Jesus .. Jesus is our righteousness and we are covered in his blood ..
God will make you think he's withdrawn his presence as in light a fire under your butt to get you back in line and seeking him .. Also there's times when you're doing all you think you can do but still find yourself in a valley . Then you began to figure out it is not works God solely is after but obedience and maturity to know he's always there ..

 

[Razeontherock]

Those who are in Christ do not sin.

You are overlooking some mighty important chunks of Scripture with this claim, not the least of which is 1 John 1:8

 

[JLB]

God does not withdraw his presence from the Christian. Those who are in Christ do not sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9


Those who are in Christ, can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.


JLB