Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[UberMink]

....OK. I'm curious, if we really turn off our bias, how one can possibly interpret the word destroy, perish or death to be an eternal existence in torment? Then they did not perish, die nor were destroyed. They are only getting eternal punishing and must be conscious and alive to be aware enough that they are getting punished. Only the living know they will die, the dead on the other hand know nothing.

 

[Free]

The whole doctrine rests on the immortality of the soul doctrine. No, we are not immortal. We live, we die, and then sleep until resurrected which is the person's next conscious moment. Only God is inherently immortal.

So, unbelievers die, sleep, are resurrected, and then thrown into the lake of fire? What happens to them in the lake of fire, are they immediately destroyed?

Now, let's just pick one word you used. Destroy.

That I used? That's the word everyone in this thread is using, because the Bible uses it.

Destroy means destroy, perish, gone. Instead there's a list there that tells me what the word ought to mean. Actually, except for 1e, which is a clear deviation and attempt to redefine the word, the rest looks generally OK. I'm curious, if we really turn off our bias, how one can possibly interpret the word destroy, perish or death to be an eternal existence in torment? Then they did not perish, die nor were destroyed. They are only getting eternal punishing and must be conscious and alive to be aware enough that they are getting punished.

You didn't read the entirety of what I wrote and in so doing, didn't address my other points, which included Scripture. Can you at least try?

Only the living know they will die, the dead on the other hand know nothing.

Be careful in using the OT to support things in the NT. Often the NT has more to say, additional revelation.

 

[UberMink]

Why did Jesus speak in parables? The reason was so that people could not understand and thus be saved. So be careful. The very fact that some are using this parable to establish doctrine shows the falling into a trap that Jesus was laying. Indeed, even if that did talk about a fire, the parable does not indicate how long this would go on. It only is showing the man's fear of it and the resulting torment. I won't disagree with that. I'm sure one caught in a car fire from an accident is fearful and tormenting, too, that nobody wants to experience.

Matthew 15:8-9 (Like is to the Interlinear version)
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Jeremiah 29:12-14 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."
Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 9:10 Those who know your name trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.

 

[Free]

We are both students of the Bible and can learn much from one another.
We both know that the word Hell comes from Norse mythology and was used almost exclusively for both Hades and Ghenna.
We both understand that it is difficult to read scrioture void of our own culture, and those that translated were no exception. As students, if we are going to discuss the topic of Hell, let us dig deep because Dantes Inferno was not what Jesus was talking about, and that's not what his Jewish listeners heard.

As students of the Holy scriptures, we owe it to each other to be good students. This means we try to hear the message being spoken as if we were there ourselves.

Ghenna has deep roots in Israel's history, and it starts with Solomon. Every Jew, even today understands this because they understand Deuteronomy 17:14-20. Not only that, but they understood the depths of Exodus to which these echo. It's about exile.
Contrast that with 1st Kings 9 - 11, and you have the birthing of Ghenna. Emphasis specifically on 1 Kings 11:3-8. I encourage you to study these gods.. do a quick search in your bible software, then read some ANE texts to get a better idea...

Start here, and dig into the Jewish culture and biblical history on the valley of Hinnom, etc and you will begin to hear properly what Jesus was saying to his Jewish audience.

I hope you will appreciate your studies and dig deep into these matters.

I really don't see how any of this is relevant. Do you or do you not agree that Jesus spoke of Gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the unrighteous? Do you or do you not agree that in so doing, Jesus says it is a place of fire, a place of punishment, and a place to be avoided at all costs?

 

[UberMink]

Actually, except for 1e, which is a clear deviation and attempt to redefine the word, the rest looks generally OK. I'm curious, if we really turn off our bias, how one can possibly interpret the word destroy, perish or death to be an eternal existence in torment? Then they did not perish, die nor were destroyed. They are only getting eternal punishing and must be conscious and alive to be aware enough that they are getting punished. Only the living know they will die, the dead on the other hand know nothing.

True.

Ecclesiastes 9
For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.

 

[Free]

True.

Ecclesiastes 9
For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.

As I just stated, be careful in using the OT to support ideas that may be further explicated in the NT.

Mat 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (ESV)

God first spoke those words back in Exodus 3:6, which means Jesus's explanation was valid back then as well. We also have:

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (ESV)

Yet we know that Moses died.

 

[stovebolts]

I really don't see how any of this is relevant. Do you or do you not agree that Jesus spoke of Gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the unrighteous? Do you or do you not agree that in so doing, Jesus says it is a place of fire, a place of punishment, and a place to be avoided at all costs?

Ghenna was not a metaphore... it is so much more than you describe. Your description sounds more like Norse mythology.

[edited]

Take care.

 

[stovebolts]

And my autocorrect keeps misspelling ghenna...

 

[Razeontherock]

Can you at least agree that Jesus said the rich man was in hell and in torment in the flame of fire?

I will leave you with your theory.

I have no "theory," nor have I suggested one.

Jesus plainly stated the rich man was suffering, in hell, in torment, in fire. From this we cannot reasonably conclude eternal conscious torment.

 

[stovebolts]

Not surprising. Yet again you ignore my points and fail to answer some simple questions. Don't let this become a habit as it is a particularly poor one for debate.

Why do you presume I haven't studied? Just because you think I don't see whatever it is that you see, or that I may not accept your particular interpretation? I know where the Valley of Hinnom is/was and what went on there. Jesus used Gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of the unrighteous. That is what the passages show and everything I have stated--my "Norse" mythology--comes directly from those passages.

I'm not sure how to take your first paragraph.. is it a personal attack or an unfounded reprimand?
Regardless, I'm sorry everything with you has to be a debate mired in footing and rigor and I believe you gravely misunderstood me.

What I see is through the centuries us gentile have depended on lexicons and weak commentary that has brought us to the point where one word we call Hell is the dummed down melting pot which represents the eternal metaphorical resting place for the wicked. Such a shallow view.

If we look at the biblical context of Gehenna, who was first thrown into the fire, and why? You will find out it was not the wicked. It was children. And who was it that were weeping and gnashing their teeth? More than likely their mothers and fathers as the child was rolled down the red hot arms and into the fiery belly of the gods first set up by Solomon for his wives.

I gave you passages that you could study yourself. This is our entry point into understanding hell and it is broader than a single metaphor because I do not believe a child offered in Gehenna to false gods will spend eternity there.

Gehenna has a rich history in Israel and it is tied into systemic sin. It's a history that the Jews knew all to well. To put it directly, when Jesus used that word to Jewish people, he didn't use it in the since of Norse Mythology which has shaped modern Christian thinking.

 

[JLB]

Where’s your evidence he had received his final judgment,

The point I made was the fire did not consume him, like a natural fire consumes, to the point of ceasing to exist.

Whether the lake of fire of that of hell, the fire torments without consuming to the point of no existence.

The rich man continued to exist in the flame of fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have no "theory," nor have I suggested one.

Jesus plainly stated the rich man was suffering, in hell, in torment, in fire. From this we cannot reasonably conclude eternal conscious torment.

I believe since the rich man was suffering in hell, in torment in the fire, we can reasonably conclude eternal conscious torment.


It was not consumed to the point of non existence.



JLB

 

[tim-from-pa]

Hi tim-from-pa
I've always enjoyed learning and conversing with you. I remember when you and Vic taught me about passover dates and the Lords crucifiction.

I was curious about your post above. Are you referring to the second death spoken about in Revelation 20 and 21?

Yes.

 

[tim-from-pa]

As I just stated, be careful in using the OT to support ideas that may be further explicated in the NT.

Mat 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (ESV)

God first spoke those words back in Exodus 3:6, which means Jesus's explanation was valid back then as well. We also have:

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (ESV)

Yet we know that Moses died.

The NT does not add anything to the OT and I hope that's not what you meant. It may reveal something that was hidden, but the foundation is still there in the OT. There's no addendums in other words. All the NT scripture came from the OT. Moses and Elijah are still awaiting resurrection the way the rest are. The transfiguration was a vision of the future. Moses and Elijah were not and are not up there in heaven. (John 3:13, Hebrews 11:13)

 

[stovebolts]

Yes.

That's what I was thinking.
Please know I am not challenging you, but i would like your take on Revelation 22:14-15


This reads to me to be after the judgment, and after the second death. How do you read it and how does this shape your view on the second death?

Btw, and I hope I'm not reading you wrong, but your vantage leans toward annialation right? Or am I wrong on that?

Just so you know, I believe all three views have merit and I have not dug my heels in and claimed any one view and i am still learning. It's not like I have a say anyway lol.

 

[Razeontherock]

I believe since the rich man was suffering in hell, in torment in the fire, we can reasonably conclude eternal conscious torment.


It was not consumed to the point of non existence.



JLB

Please explain some logic for your stance with this single passage, as I see none. Was Jesus speaking post-eternity, in this non-parable?

To me, your assertion in this is a horridly confused false dichotomy that either you burn up like straw, or "eternity." Is God's Power really that limited? He has no other options? If not, why not?

 

[Razeontherock]

If Rev 22 is going to be discussed,I also have a question:

John went to worship this Angel, who refused to be worshipped. Then the dialogue shifts to what can only be Jesus' words, but as I read it it's still the same Angel speaking?!?

And by the way, my hat's off to the staff! This site is much improved, with a much better quality of discussion. Thank you.

 

[chessman]

The point I made was the fire did not consume him, like a natural fire consumes, to the point of ceasing to exist.

And it’s a good point. Just not a conclusive one.
The point I made, from Peter’s recognition of the Lord’s power and role as Judge, was that the Rich Man had not yet received his final judgment (second death) nor had his brothers but rather he was being reserved for the Judgment Day.

God’s fire accomplishes God’s will, whether that be for purification (Gen 3:2-5, Lev 6:8-13), for testing yes even the righteous (Ps 11) or for the destruction of everything wicked.

When the foundations are destroyed what can the righteous do? Yahweh is in his holy temple; Yahweh is in the heavens on his throne. His eyelids see; they test the children of humankind. Yahweh tests the righteous, but the wicked and the lover of violence his soul hates. He will rain coals on the wicked. Burning sulfur and scorching wind will be the portion of their cup.​

Psalm 11:3-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 11:3-6&version=LEB

Do you believe God’s eternal fire is unable to consume the wicked?

And the peoples will be burning to lime— they are burned like thorns that have been cut down in the fire. You who are far away, hear what I have done; and you who are near, know my might!” Sinners are afraid in Zion; trembling has seized the godless: “Who of us can live with devouring fire? Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”​

Isaiah 33:12-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 33:12-14&version=LEB

If the everlasting fire is eternal (as you rightly point out) is it also not consuming (all things considered)?

 

[JLB]

Please explain some logic for your stance with this single passage, as I see none. Was Jesus speaking post-eternity, in this non-parable?

To me, your assertion in this is a horridly confused false dichotomy that either you burn up like straw, or "eternity." Is God's Power really that limited? He has no other options? If not, why not?

The rich man was being tormented in the flame.

23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Luke 16:23-31


Does the passage indicate that this was ever going to change?

Does the passage indicate this torment was temporary?

The rich man wanted to relieve the torment with a drop of water, but couldn’t.


Here is what the other passages about this punishment teach us.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The fire is everlasting.


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

The punishment is everlasting.


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:10-11

The torment is everlasting.


Insulting me with comments like “your assertion in this is a horridly confused false dichotomy”, is mot going to make the torment, nor the punishment in, the everlasting fire, somehow temporary.




JLB

 

[JLB]

the Rich Man had not yet received his final judgment (second death) nor had his brothers but rather he was being reserved for the Judgment Day.

Here is what the Day of Judgement will bring to those who obey unrighteousness.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The fire is everlasting.


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

The punishment is everlasting.



JLB