Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[Free]

The NT does not add anything to the OT and I hope that's not what you meant. It may reveal something that was hidden, but the foundation is still there in the OT. There's no addendums in other words. All the NT scripture came from the OT. Moses and Elijah are still awaiting resurrection the way the rest are. The transfiguration was a vision of the future.

The transfiguration most certainly was not a vision of the future. It would have been an absolutely pointless vision. We don't need to look at Luke's account to know that, but let's do it anyway:

Luk 9:30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah,
Luk 9:31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said. (ESV)

A "vision of the future" in which Moses and Elijah "appeared in glory" and spoke of what Jesus was "about to accomplish at Jerusalem"? No, that was happening then and there. And that is consistent with God being the God of the living, not the dead.

Moses and Elijah were not and are not up there in heaven. (John 3:13, Hebrews 11:13)

Well, they're not dead, are they. In using John 3:13, you had better keep in mind that Elijah did not die. I have no idea what the relevance of Heb 11:13 is.

 

[chessman]

Do you believe God’s eternal fire is unable to consume the wicked?

If the everlasting fire is eternal (as you rightly point out) is it also not consuming (all things considered)?

This is not an answer to either question:

Here is what the Day of Judgement will bring to those who obey unrighteousness.

So once again your case for Biblically supporting the ‘eternal torment” of the wicked (in this case using the rich man’s torment) is evidenced as weak because you did not answer my questions reposted above. Here’s another question; Had the Rich Man been raised from Hades, placed on the left as a goat at Jesus’s Throne, judged as wicked and cast into the Lake of Fire?

The fire is everlasting.

True. God is also everlasting. Is wickedness everlasting? Or does God, one day, consume wickedness?

The punishment is everlasting.

True. The destruction of the wicked on the Day of Judgment is everlasting.

 

[Razeontherock]

Jesus either used gehenna in the way Jews of His day were accustomed to, or He defined it differently. Does anyone see such a re-definition?

 

[WIP]

Insulting me with comments like “your assertion in this is a horridly confused false dichotomy”, is mot going to make the torment, nor the punishment in, the everlasting fire, somehow temporary.

I didn't see it as an intention to insult but rather he was explaining how your assertion comes across to him, not accusing you directly. This is why I let it stand.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Even if Hell were a beach at a beautiful lake with corn dogs and pizza every day and all the ice cream you want; even a cool breeze and it was never night: But, you were all alone for an eternity, and God was not present. Even that would be horrible.

 

[tim-from-pa]

......

Well, they're not dead, are they. In using John 3:13, you had better keep in mind that Elijah did not die. I have no idea what the relevance of Heb 11:13 is.

Hebrews 11:13 says the opposite of what you just said, i.e. these all died....... even the ones not named due to constraints in the letter.

As for John 3:13, Jesus himself said no man ascended to heaven. Elijah was before Christ so that includes him. Some of your posts previously claim to allude to what Christ stated, and yet here he stated something clearly but your answer to that "keep in mind that Elijah did not die" .... Yeah he was taken up to heaven, but where (or which I should ask)? And could he have come back? Possibly. The bible is not clear on that, so Jesus cleared it up. Enoch also died.

I don't care if one is wrong about something, but at least stay consistent. You can't quote Jesus when it suits you and then when it comes to Elijah it does not matter. This is the same issue with the 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. People don't want to believe Jesus when he stated that because it does not fit their preconceive notions from traditions of men.

Mankind was created as a complete being, not a spirit floating in heaven while the body is down here dead. Otherwise, if one was in heaven as a spirit, then what's the point in a resurrection? They have this nice spirit in the joys of heaven fully aware. They would not then need a body. The resurrection is to bring one back from a state of death by making them alive again the way they were.

 

[Razeontherock]

I asked for your logic, and this is your response, which I appreciate:

The rich man was being tormented in the flame.

Does the passage indicate that this was ever going to change?

Does the passage indicate this torment was temporary?

The passage is SILENT on duration. That the whole of Scripture is inconclusive on this point is demonstrated by the fact that the 5 theological schools associated with the five original churches were split, with two teaching annihillationism. There has NEVER been consensus on this point, yet it didn't cause any type of Church split amongst the early Church.

I think I understand why:

Scripture is perfectly clear on the point that all Judgment is given to the Son. That precludes anyone posting on this forum, btw. Our Lord is both perfectly capable and Just to have one burn up like a log, another to be purged by fire, another to suffer consciously until Judgment Day, and another to suffer ECT.

I will not presume to advise Him on any of this. In fact, I see it as quite a stern rebuke when His Apostles asked about other's Judgment; He responded by saying "you, follow me." To me, this suggests they had already turned away from following Him in their hearts, and that is why those particular individuals at that particular time asked Him that question.

Me? I prefer not to make that mistake if I can avoid it. I prefer learning from the mistakes of others.

 

[billybalke]

I asked for your logic, and this is your response, which I appreciate:



The passage is SILENT on duration. That the whole of Scripture is inconclusive on this point is demonstrated by the fact that the 5 theological schools associated with the five original churches were split, with two teaching annihillationism. There has NEVER been consensus on this point, yet it didn't cause any type of Church split amongst the early Church.

I think I understand why:

Scripture is perfectly clear on the point that all Judgment is given to the Son. That precludes anyone posting on this forum, btw. Our Lord is both perfectly capable and Just to have one burn up like a log, another to be purged by fire, another to suffer consciously until Judgment Day, and another to suffer ECT.

I will not presume to advise Him on any of this. In fact, I see it as quite a stern rebuke when His Apostles asked about other's Judgment; He responded by saying "you, follow me." To me, this suggests they had already turned away from following Him in their hearts, and that is why those particular individuals at that particular time asked Him that question.

Me? I prefer not to make that mistake if I can avoid it. I prefer learning from the mistakes of others.

I prefer learning from the scriptures.

 

[Razeontherock]

I prefer learning from the scriptures.

How is learning from other's mistakes recorded in Scripture not "learning from the Scriptures?"

 

[OzSpen]

I prefer learning from the scriptures.

Then, why did God give the gift of teachers to the church (1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11 NIV)?

 

[UberMink]

I prefer learning from the scriptures.

Wise choice. When you encounter false exegesis that hopes to convince destruction in the Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, does not mean destroy, it is wise to cleave to God's all knowing message to his people. However, as you are aware Emmanuel taught his followers using parables, allegory, to impart Father's truth. [What is a Parable? A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels. ]
The parable form would cause the sincere of heart to look deeper than the surface story Emmanuel was sharing with them. And he shared his parables in a vernacular the people would be familiar with in their everyday life.
As in telling them he is the shepherd and those that follow him are his sheep. He knows them and they know his voice and follow.
There is a video in a thread here that demonstrates in contemporary example what Emmanuel was teaching there. No, people who are indwelt by Holy Spirit God are not actual sheep. Of course not. The parable was to impart the fact a shepherd does not herd cattle or goats. He herds sheep and cares for them and will lay down his life to save them.
As shepherd's in that day did do when raiders would try to steal from the flock, or predator animals would try to kill.
Emmanuel said he came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And yet he also said there are other sheep that he has, not of that sheepfold, meaning Israel. And for them he had come too.
Look deeper than just what is written in God's word.
Seek a Concordance to find related text and citations as pertains to a scripture of interest. Access a Lexicon, one that has compiled Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, is most wonderful. Emmanuel spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. And the New Testament was translated to Greek. You'll have your bases covered in the depths of research there. Look to the Aramaic first because that was God's , Emmanuel's, language first.

Follow where the shepherd leads and you will live a life nourished by rich grasses and pure water all your days. But like any sheep, always beware of the wolves.

 

[UberMink]

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. "

 

[JLB]

I asked for your logic, and this is your response, which I appreciate:



The passage is SILENT on duration. That the whole of Scripture is inconclusive on this point is demonstrated by the fact that the 5 theological schools associated with the five original churches were split, with two teaching annihillationism. There has NEVER been consensus on this point, yet it didn't cause any type of Church split amongst the early Church.

I think I understand why:

Scripture is perfectly clear on the point that all Judgment is given to the Son. That precludes anyone posting on this forum, btw. Our Lord is both perfectly capable and Just to have one burn up like a log, another to be purged by fire, another to suffer consciously until Judgment Day, and another to suffer ECT.

I will not presume to advise Him on any of this. In fact, I see it as quite a stern rebuke when His Apostles asked about other's Judgment; He responded by saying "you, follow me." To me, this suggests they had already turned away from following Him in their hearts, and that is why those particular individuals at that particular time asked Him that question.

Me? I prefer not to make that mistake if I can avoid it. I prefer learning from the mistakes of others.

I prefer to simply believe Jesus, and learn from Him.



Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The fire is everlasting.


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

The punishment is everlasting.


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:10-11

The torment is everlasting.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I didn't see it as an intention to insult but rather he was explaining how your assertion comes across to him, not accusing you directly. This is why I let it stand.

You do as you see fit.

Your the moderator.

 

[JLB]

Had the Rich Man been raised from Hades, placed on the left as a goat at Jesus’s Throne, judged as wicked and cast into the Lake of Fire?

I don’t believe he would be judged with God’s servants.

 

[JLB]

This is not an answer to either question:


So once again your case for Biblically supporting the ‘eternal torment” of the wicked (in this case using the rich man’s torment) is evidenced as weak because you did not answer my questions reposted above. Here’s another question; Had the Rich Man been raised from Hades, placed on the left as a goat at Jesus’s Throne, judged as wicked and cast into the Lake of Fire?


True. God is also everlasting. Is wickedness everlasting? Or does God, one day, consume wickedness?

True. The destruction of the wicked on the Day of Judgment is everlasting.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

The fire is everlasting.


46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

The punishment is everlasting.


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:10-11

The torment is everlasting.


These are the facts of scripture for you and I to believe or not.



JLB

 

[chessman]

The torment is everlasting.

The passage doesn’t say the torment is everlasting.

These are the facts of scripture for you and I to believe or not.

I believe the smoke of their destruction on Earth goes up forever because I believe the entire Scripture. Including the fact that this torment occurs in the presence of The Lamb.

Do you believe the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever?

 

[OzSpen]

The passage doesn’t say the torment is everlasting.

I believe the smoke of their destruction on Earth goes up forever because I believe the entire Scripture. Including the fact that this torment occurs in the presence of The Lamb.

Do you believe the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever?

chessman,

What is the meaning of 'destruction'?

If we examined some isolated Scriptures, it may be possible to take these passages to mean annihilation. I’m thinking of the word, “destroy”, in Matt. 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Greek: gehenna]” (ESV). Even with passages such as Matt. 7:13-14 (NIV) where the broad road leads to destruction and John 3:16 (NIV), “Whoever believes in him shall not perish” could be pressed to try to get the meaning of annihilation.

Even if we took the following passages alone without consideration of other passages, there is a possibility that extermination / extinction of the wicked could be an interpretation: John 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12; 9:22; Philippians 1:28; 3:19; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; Hebrews 10:39; James 4:12 and 2 Peter 3:7, 9. However, there’s a big barrier to this kind of interpretation….

There are verses that are impossible to square with destruction meaning annihilation. Second Thessalonians 1:9 is one of those barriers. It reads, “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (ESV). Who are “they”? They are “those who do not know God” and “do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus” (2 Thess. 1:8 NIV), thus referring to unbelievers. The words from 2 Thess. 1:9 (NIV), “eternal destruction”, could hardly mean “eternal annihilation”. This verse creates the added problem against annihilation that the ungodly will be “away from the presence of the Lord”, which indicates that their existence is continuing but they will be shut out from being in God’s presence. If one were to speak of being “destroyed” from the presence of the Lord, it would imply non-existence.

Scot McKnight put it this way: “Paul has in mind an irreversible verdict of eternal nonfellowship with God. A person exists but remains excluded from God’s good presence” (in Peterson 1995:163).

In Revelation 17:8, 11 (NIV), “destruction” is prophesied of “the beast”, but in Revelation 19 (NIV) the Beast and False Prophet “were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur” (19:20). We know that they are still alive when this is happening because they are there 1,000 years later (Rev. 20:7, 10). It cannot mean what Fudge says it means, “The lake of fire stands for utter, absolute, irreversible annihilation” (in Peterson 1995:154).

The content of this response is from my article: Eternal torment for unbelievers when they die

Oz

Works consulted

Robert A. Peterson 1995. Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: P&R Publishing.

 

[OzSpen]

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

The punishment is everlasting.

JLB,

Matt 25:46 (NIV) is a critical verse in understanding the destiny of both unbelievers and believers: "Then they [goats, unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (NIV).

According to Dan 12:2 (NIV), 'Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt'. This is parallel with Matt 25:46 and the standard understanding of aiwnios.

What is common to the Greek aiwnios (eternal/everlasting) is that it means, 'without end'. For the damned and the saved, there will be enduring separation. For one group (unbelievers) it will be punishment and for the other (believers), life - and there will be no change to it after death. It goes on forever and ever. That's what this verse teaches.

It's unfortunate that the KJV translated it this way: 'And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal' (Matt 25:46). It's unfortunate because the one Greek word aiwnios is translated as 'everlasting' and then 'eternal'. This adjective must be translated by the same word, either 'eternal ... eternal' or 'everlasting ... everlasting'. To make one everlasting and the other eternal leads to confusion when the length of time is the same. A translation of 'everlasting ... everlasting' would be consistent with the emphasis of Mark 9:47-48 (NIV):

'And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell [Gehenna, not Hades], 48 where

‘“the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.”'

I have been helped by William Hendriksen's commentary on Matthew (Baker Academic 1973: 891-892).

I congratulate you, JLB, for your many excellent posts. Keep us the excellent exegesis and exposition.

Oz

 

[JLB]

The passage doesn’t say the torment is everlasting.

I believe the smoke of their destruction on Earth goes up forever because I believe the entire Scripture. Including the fact that this torment occurs in the presence of The Lamb.

Do you believe the wicked are tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever?

Yes.

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:10


I also believe the torment will be continual.


And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:11



JLB