Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[savedbygrace57]

glory

Are you claiming we're NOT to trust and believe because YOU consider them a work?

Never said that. I stated that believing and Trusting are things man does, hence works of man. Do you disagree that believing and trusting are things men must DO ?

Are you claiming we're to believe your definition of work instead of the Word of God?

Its not my definition, but the word of God's. The word work as in Eph 2:9

ergon:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now, the scriptural definition of a work has been defined.

Believing, trusting, are thins done by man. Its a product of the mind.

People believe by their mind. Those who believe not is because their mind is blinded 2 Cor 4:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[glorydaz]

gm



gm teaches getting saved by keeping the commandments of God, a work salvation condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

You deny salvation by grace..

We're saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. You're not supposed to take verses out of context.

Let's look at Titus 3...This is speaking of our righteous works after salvation. They don't save us. Notice what comes after the verse you quoted. "They which have believed....be careful to maintain good works. They don't save us, but believing in the Lord Jesus Christ does. (by grace through FAITH IN HIM)

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We're saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. You're not supposed to take verses out of context.

Let's look at Titus 3...This is speaking of our righteous works after salvation. They don't save us. Notice what comes after the verse you quoted. "They which have believed....be careful to maintain good works. They don't save us, but believing in the Lord Jesus Christ does. (by grace through FAITH IN HIM)

AMEN Brother!!!

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

We're saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

Thats True

But not of works lest any man should boast vs 9

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Believing on Christ is something must must do, which makes it a work..

 

[Danus]

However, I believe "anyone" born into this world has a (God given ability to choose what they believe) A free will. Man is not coerced, forced, or chosen to believe. He believes because he so chooses to believe...

Yes I know you do, and that's why you have a "works" based understanding of salvation; That salvation is based on something man does not something God does.

You'er not alone in that unfortunatly, and I will say, that people do come to salvation with that view, but not all. It is a works based idea and it runs into many brick walls with what we know of God, man and the salvation God offers.

There are degrees to your theology. On the one hand many who think like that will say we are held to the law, while others tend to lean more towards understanding grace. I think you lean more to the grace side, but I can't tell.

 

[savedbygrace57]

dan

You'er not alone in that unfortunatly, and I will say, that people do come to salvation with that view, but not all. It is a works based idea and it runs into many brick walls with what we know of God, man and the salvation God offers.

Salvation that God offers ? That does not sound biblical. Do you have scripture for this concept of God offering salvation ? To whom does He offer it to ? Whats the condition of receiving the offer ? Or maybe I have misunderstood you. Thanks..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes I know you do, and that's why you have a "works" based understanding of salvation; That salvation is based on something man does not something God does.

You'er not alone in that unfortunatly, and I will say, that people do come to salvation with that view, but not all. It is a works based idea and it runs into many brick walls with what we know of God, man and the salvation God offers.

There are degrees to your theology. On the one hand many who think like that will say we are held to the law, while others tend to lean more towards understanding grace. I think you lean more to the grace side, but I can't tell.

The problem lies within the "interpretation" of Scripture. When a person is "indoctrinated" in a particular denomination, sect, church, cult, etc. they tend to become, a slave to that particular belief system and they are not able to read the word and allow the Spirit to open up the Scripture and teach them. They become "dependent" upon their churches teachings to get by, they become lazy about studying on their own...This can be a "detriment" to their ability to use, logical reasoning. Brainwashing is not a good thing...

 

[Danus]

dan



Salvation that God offers ? That does not sound biblical. Do you have scripture for this concept of God offering salvation ? To whom does He offer it to ? Whats the condition of receiving the offer ? Or maybe I have misunderstood you. Thanks..

Hummm...I'm not totally following your question.

I am a reformist if that helps you understand my position. I follow the understandings of Luther, Calvin and Edwards. Notice I said, "understandings", this is not to say that I've been taught what I believe by these theologians, only that I have discovered the same understandings and I'm in strong agreement.
Again, I'm putting that out there so you know where I stand, but if that does not help, I'd be happy to explain the reformist view in regards to salvation.

 

[Danus]

The problem lies within the "interpretation" of Scripture. When a person is "indoctrinated" in a particular denomination, sect, church, cult, etc. they tend to become, a slave to that particular belief system and they are not able to read the word and allow the Spirit to open up the Scripture and teach them. They become "dependent" upon their churches teachings to get by, they become lazy about studying on their own...This can be a "detriment" to their ability to use, logical reasoning. Brainwashing is not a good thing...

I disagree. There might be issues with interpretations, but moreover it's an issue of logic.
I was brought up in a Methodist church. I left the church at an early age. I've been a Baptist, a Presbyterian and non-denominational. I also have some roots in the Catholic church, only that I have many family members who are Catholic.
In any case I was not in any church at all when I became saved. I was as far removed from God as I could be. It took me months to get enough courage to even walk back into any church. I have enjoyed all the churches I have been a part of and for the most part I respect what they teach.
While I agree that some people might rely on their church to teach them, I disagree that that has anything to do with a person actually being saved at all.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes I know you do, and that's why you have a "works" based understanding of salvation; That salvation is based on something man does not something God does.

You'er not alone in that unfortunatly, and I will say, that people do come to salvation with that view, but not all. It is a works based idea and it runs into many brick walls with what we know of God, man and the salvation God offers.

There are degrees to your theology. On the one hand many who think like that will say we are held to the law, while others tend to lean more towards understanding grace. I think you lean more to the grace side, but I can't tell.

Gee, who should we believe?

Those who claim believing is a work of man or Jesus who tells us it's a work of God?

Not that I expect any of you to change your tune...it's obvious what the Bible says takes back seat with many voicing this opinion, but I'll put forth the truth, nonetheless.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is a gift given when we are persuaded (believe) the gospel message.

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Being persuaded by the power of the gospel message is not a work of man, but a work of God through the POWER of the Word.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I think this is all the time I need to waste on this subject. You all can just talk amongst yourselves, for if the power of the Word, itself, doesn't convince...nothing will.

 

[glorydaz]

The problem lies within the "interpretation" of Scripture. When a person is "indoctrinated" in a particular denomination, sect, church, cult, etc. they tend to become, a slave to that particular belief system and they are not able to read the word and allow the Spirit to open up the Scripture and teach them. They become "dependent" upon their churches teachings to get by, they become lazy about studying on their own...This can be a "detriment" to their ability to use, logical reasoning. Brainwashing is not a good thing...

You hit the nail on the head with this one, brother. A hearty AMEN.

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

 

[savedbygrace57]

danus

Hummm...I'm not totally following your question.

Really, they are very simple. You stated something about an offer of salvation here

man and the salvation God offers.

Please explain that statement first. Maybe if we go step by step it will be easier for you understand my inquiry.

I am a reformist if that helps you understand my position.

That does not matter, just be able to defend your statements with scripture. Explain this Offer of God you make mention of. Thanks..

 

[Danus]

Gee, who should we believe?

Those who claim believing is a work of man or Jesus who tells us it's a work of God?

Not that I expect any of you to change your tune...it's obvious what the Bible says takes back seat with many voicing this opinion, but I'll put forth the truth, nonetheless.



Faith is a gift given when we are persuaded (believe) the gospel message.


Being persuaded by the power of the gospel message is not a work of man, but a work of God through the POWER of the Word.


I think this is all the time I need to waste on this subject. You all can just talk amongst yourselves, for if the power of the Word, itself, doesn't convince...nothing will.

Well, this is about the most agreeable, fair post I've had the plesure of reading from you, Glorydaz.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You hit the nail on the head with this one, brother. A hearty AMEN.

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

The word is doctrine, what kind of statement is that ?

1 Tim 6:3

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

 

[Danus]

danus



Really, they are very simple. You stated something about an offer of salvation here



Please explain that statement first. Maybe if we go step by step it will be easier for you understand my inquiry.



That does not matter, just be able to defend your statements with scripture. Explain this Offer of God you make mention of. Thanks..

AND WHERE WHERE YOU ON THE NIGHT OF THE 27TH! Just answer the question! ....

Ok, you want me to show you scripture that supports the idea of God offering man salvation? Is this not a given? Does the devil offer man salvation? Dose Mohammed offer man salvation? ....you see where I'm going with this?

Do I really have to list scripture to suggest that salvation is from God? Is it the word offer that you don't like me using? If so I can adjust it I suppose. Grants, Gives, I like Gives. That better?

My telling you I am a reformist is a big deal, because it should tell you where I'm coming from. However, I'll take it a step further and say that no man is saved by anything he "Man" does....anything.

 

[glorydaz]

I disagree. There might be issues with interpretations, but moreover it's an issue of logic.
I was brought up in a Methodist church. I left the church at an early age. I've been a Baptist, a Presbyterian and non-denominational. I also have some roots in the Catholic church, only that I have many family members who are Catholic.
In any case I was not in any church at all when I became saved. I was as far removed from God as I could be. It took me months to get enough courage to even walk back into any church. I have enjoyed all the churches I have been a part of and for the most part I respect what they teach.
While I agree that some people might rely on their church to teach them, I disagree that that has anything to do with a person actually being saved at all.

Quite a mixed bag.

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

You said, "There might be issues with interpretations, but moreover it's an issue of logic."

We must allow the Holy Spirit to "reveal" the truth of the scriptures to us.

As it says in Proverbs (3:5) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

Unfortunately, we too often see "vain babblings" when discussing God's Word. Believers are not exempt from this.

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways. I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word. Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

 

[glorydaz]

The word is doctrine, what kind of statement is that ?

1 Tim 6:3

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

That is not referring to the doctrine of Calvin or the doctrine of Armenian (whoever) or any other doctrine except the doctrine of God and the word of Jesus Christ. The Bible is our ultimate authority, and we can't change scripture or take it piecemeal to support any of the many doctrines being promoted by men.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

That is not referring to the doctrine of Calvin

Who said it was ? Deal with what has been stated in the posts, do not get off the subject. I have not seen anyone mention calvin in this thread, if they have please point it out.

Your issue is that you promote a salvation by works, which is anti scriptural..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You hit the nail on the head with this one, brother. A hearty AMEN.

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

YEP!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That is not referring to the doctrine of Calvin or the doctrine of Armenian (whoever) or any other doctrine except the doctrine of God and the word of Jesus Christ. The Bible is our ultimate authority, and we can't change scripture or take it piecemeal to support any of the many doctrines being promoted by men.

AMEN!!!!!!!