Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[savedbygrace57]

ace

Their is one work I know is necessary to be saved, and that's to trust in Jesus, accept him as your savor, and repent, or turn away form your sins.

Now here is an honest person who admits they believe in salvation by works to be saved, the works of man.

Unfortunately however what this means is that this person does not believe the scripture here Titus 3:5


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Trusting in Christ, repentance, turning away from sin, are all works of righteousness which man does !

 

[glorydaz]

ace




Now here is an honest person who admits they believe in salvation by works to be saved, the works of man.

Unfortunately however what this means is that this person does not believe the scripture here Titus 3:5


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Trusting in Christ, repentance, turning away from sin, are all works of righteousness which man does !

Trusting and believing are not works of righteousness which we have done.

The Lord is going to look harshly on those who judge others when they are so obviously flawed themselves.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Do you think "good works" is a by product of faith rather than something directly required for salvation?

Did you read my "exposition" on higher IQ intelligence not making "any" difference regarding Salvation?? You made a comment that "Calvinists" have a difficult time receiving the Gospel, due to the fact they are more, "intellectually" inclined, or something to that effect... Would you care to "expound"on your theory?? Your comment seems to be a "generalization" and I'm pondering if you have "data" in which to back up your, "conclusion?"

 

[Grubal Muruch]

ace




Now here is an honest person who admits they believe in salvation by works to be saved, the works of man.

Unfortunately however what this means is that this person does not believe the scripture here Titus 3:5


5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Trusting in Christ, repentance, turning away from sin, are all works of righteousness which man does !

You act as if you've suddenly discovered, "life on other planets" the way you, pronounce, "Now here is an honest person who admits they believe in salvation by works to be saved, the works of man." Of course, you are being "facetious" and certainly not, didactic...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Ah, I see. You've graduated to proclaiming I don't even know what I believe. Gee, I'm really worried now. I sure hope I don't start doubting my own salvation. Hmmmmm.......

Let's go fishing, then, shall we? I contend it's your inability to accept a view that's contrary to yours. Now we've got some good finger-pointing going on, don't we? That's gotta be a step in the right direction. Should I start saying you believe men are no more than robots? Boy, that sounds like fun. ;)

So, let's go back to the subject you and some others don't want to address. The serpent on a pole. Remember, Christ, Himself, gave us this very illustration. Christ must be lifted up (by the preaching of the gospel), our choice comes in here........we can either place our trust in some other method, or we can look to Christ. Those who look shall live, and those who refuse to look will die. That's about as simple as it gets.

What does the looking mean, anyway? Why is it even in the Bible...some story about a bronze serpent on a pole? Just so we can ignore it and move on with our own preconceived notion (or man-made doctrine)?

It means man must respond to God's command to repent and believe....by looking at the serpent on the pole, by drinking from the river of life, by eating the bread of life, by coming. God wants us to voluntarily come to Him. He wants us to love Him and desire to do His will. It isn't really that difficult to comprehend since love, not freely given is not love at all. We repent because we are ashamed of how we've lived our life, and we love Him for giving His life to save our miserable souls.

I have never believed in a works based salvation. Of course, my definition of works is certainly not yours.
Believing isn't something we strive to do....it simply occurs because of the POWER of the gospel message, but we must choose to trust in Him when the offer to live is given. You can't address this verse, you'd prefer to ramble on with your own thoughts without presenting anything from the Word to back up what you say. So, explain it....



I know it's easier to ignore all the scripture verses that man has to make that choice, and just hang on like a pit bull to your doctrine. I can't help that. But for you to constantly be claiming I believe in a works-based salvation is as judgmental as it gets, and getting quite boring.

Now I've said it in as many ways as I can. I have not changed what I've said...I've believed the same way for over 40years so don't be claiming any such nonsense as this...."that sometimes you will come to the philosophical edge of admitting it, then you step back and occasionally step right over it".

But since you enjoy fishing so much, I don't mind tagging along. I kind of enjoy watching a braggart fisherman come home empty handed.

Excellent observations AMEN!!!!!

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

Trusting and believing are not works of righteousness which we have done.

Yes they are. Believing and Trusting are things men do ! Anything man does is a work.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Psychologist refer to the mental state of pending physical death in terms of 5 stages. These stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

I find this interesting because to me it mirrors the similar stages of the death of ones own free will, or realizing they are spiritually dead and the accepting of God's will for their life; receiving a new nature from God; One of spiritual life, and everlasting life.

1 Denial. Either denial that God exist, (Atheist and Agnostics) Choosing to live within ones own free will. Willful sinners, ....or .....denial that one must give up one's will to start a relationship with God, choosing instead to willfully choose Christ.

There are people who take their free will and say, "I'm going to be a Christian and follow Christ"! This is great, but they still have a problem with their own free will, which is naturally in opposition to God's will, regardless of that persons best intentions.

God still has to deal with the will of man because even though someone willfully says they want to be a Christian, they are still living within their own free will, which is just as NO GOOD, and firmly in the way of true salvation, as any Atheist or willful sinner. It's a start, but inevitably leads to the next three stages, as these new said Christians set out to do their work they like to call the work of the Lord.

2.Anger at God, when things don't work out in their lives.

3.Bargaining with God, to make things work out as they would like.

4.Depression (which is the disparity between the reality of truth and ones own expectations) This happens a lot with Christians who feel they have failed to live up to God's standard, and you what? They are right, because no one can live up to God's standards, and he needs us to know that before we can truly accept the work of Jesus Christ.

What needs to happen is the final stage
5. Acceptance. (Born again Christians). This is the point where one realizes they are a sinner by their own free will, their own nature and that they can do nothing about it, but that God can. This is the point where one truly hands it over, truly trust God fully, and says "I am dead to myself; and in my opinion, receives a measure of faith in God choosing them, not them choosing God.

Does man Choose God? He sure thinks he does, but he does not. God chooses man, and he will choose whom he will choose for his Glory, not man's. However, this does not mean that those who seek him are not chosen, but still, some aren't and for those who do not understand the giving up of themselves this leaves a huge question mark. "I'm I saved?"

Give up trying to be a Christian. You can't do it. Give up and accept Christ. That's how you become a Christian. You can accept Christ and then give up, but you may not ever give up, and if you don't ever give up, then you can never truly accept Christ, because , It is not of your own doing, but of God's.

You can take the 5 best people who've ever lived, and merge their best qualities into one person and you will have a total failure before God based on God's standard and man's ability to meet that standard.

This is the difference between salvation by one's effort or works, which is not salvation at all, and true salvation by faith alone. But, does this mean that those who seek God are not saved? Are they not chosen? No it does not mean that. It's simply means that the gift of salvation does not come from man to God, but from God to man, and that it is of NO specific effort, or even desire on man's part to be saved. However, those how seek God will find him, but that effort to seek God does not mean one skips the condition necessary for true salvation, to give up ones own self, ones free will, and to understand just how utterly helpless they are FIRST.

The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all.

You have stated, "The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all"

Man must indeed, supply the, "much needed" faith, (the faith in which God created in us as His creations, which includes the ability to "freely choose" what we believe) The "works" of which you speak, are manifested after the Holy Spirit has "indwelt and sealed us." Faith, is mans "only" requirement" in the salvation process...Beyond that, Jesus did ALL the work...

 

[Danus]

You have stated, "The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all"

Man must indeed, supply the, "much needed" faith, (the faith in which God created in us as His creations, which includes the ability to "freely choose" what we believe) The "works" of which you speak, are manifested after the Holy Spirit has "indwelt and sealed us." Faith, is mans "only" requirement" in the salvation process...Beyond that, Jesus did ALL the work...

Well, you started the thread asking what's required for salvation, works or faith. So we agree that faith is the only requirement. You say faith is from God and so do I.

 

[glorydaz]

glory



Yes they are. Believing and Trusting are things men do ! Anything man does is a work.

That's only according to you, SbyG. The scriptures teach no such thing.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, you started the thread asking what's required for salvation, works or faith. So we agree that faith is the only requirement. You say faith is from God and so do I.

However, I believe "anyone" born into this world has a (God given ability to choose what they believe) A free will. Man is not coerced, forced, or chosen to believe. He believes because he so chooses to believe...

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's only according to you, SbyG. The scriptures teach no such thing.

Oh yes they do. You disagree with the scripture that believing and trusting are things men do ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

However, I believe "anyone" born into this world has a (God given ability to choose what they believe) A free will. Man is not coerced, forced, or chosen to believe. He believes because he so chooses to believe...

More works salvation preaching. That is against scripture teaching. Eph 2:8-9



8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Believing is a work, it is something man does..Its a commandment of God 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, if you believe one is saved by keeping one commandment of God, you are obligated to keep the whole Law to be saved.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

More works salvation preaching. That is against scripture teaching. Eph 2:8-9



8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Believing is a work, it is something man does..Its a commandment of God 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, if you believe one is saved by keeping one commandment of God, you are obligated to keep the whole Law to be saved.

No. You simply misunderstand that Scripture...

 

[savedbygrace57]

No. You simply misunderstand that Scripture...

lol, to you i do, but its very simple. God commands men to believe onHis Son. Thats something man does, a work !

 

[glorydaz]

You have stated, "The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all"

Man must indeed, supply the, "much needed" faith, (the faith in which God created in us as His creations, which includes the ability to "freely choose" what we believe) The "works" of which you speak, are manifested after the Holy Spirit has "indwelt and sealed us." Faith, is mans "only" requirement" in the salvation process...Beyond that, Jesus did ALL the work...

I have no doubt we're to listen to Jesus instead of SbyG...If He commands us to repent and believe, I doubt He takes kindly to someone claiming we aren't able to do so. I believe we're seeing the preaching of some other gospel that Paul speaks of. ;)

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

lol, to you i do, but its very simple. God commands men to believe onHis Son. Thats something man does, a work !

Yes, that is correct, man "must" place his faith in Christ in order to be saved. I'm glad you recognize this as a fact...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

Yes, that is correct, man "must" place his faith in Christ in order to be saved

gm teaches getting saved by keeping the commandments of God, a work salvation condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

You deny salvation by grace..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

gm



gm teaches getting saved by keeping the commandments of God, a work salvation condemned by scripture. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

You deny salvation by grace..

What church or denomination are you affiliated with??

 

[savedbygrace57]

What church or denomination are you affiliated with??

Off topic, this thread is not about that. Stay on topic.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh yes they do. You disagree with the scripture that believing and trusting are things men do ?

Are you claiming we're NOT to trust and believe because YOU consider them a work?

Are you claiming we're to believe your definition of work instead of the Word of God?

Are you preaching some confusing gospel message for a purpose other than just hoping to win a semantics debate on a forum? I suggest you stop in your attempts to adulterate the gospel message. If Jesus tells us to repent and believe, do you honestly think you should be spreading confusion about what he said by playing these word games?

If you have trouble reconciling scripture, by insisting believing is man's work, then you have only to look at your definition of "work". It just isn't squaring with God's Truth as put forward in the Bible.