There seems to be an "inherent" disapproval, not only with faith but, of your fellow man. (whom Christ died for because of God's LOVE for the world) That's two areas I believe are "unacceptable."
Come on man! How much more honest, direct and exposed can I be? What riddles I'm I throwing off for you to decipher? NONE!
Do I have a problem with my "fellow man"? - yes, kind of. Like me, he is a sinner.
I have all but written in crayon what I think of faith. I said that my fellow man does not have faith he was not first given by God. You think man musters his own faith. I disagree.
I am a reformist. You are not, but nor do I think you know what you truly believe. That's OK.
I am not faulting you for that, but I am faulting you for not having the intellectual integrity to at least try to understand what you think your theological adversaries believe! In the end, your contempt is a display of your own cretinous, not mine. However, by even being involved to this level might in fact be a display of mine.
I am trying to get you to see, perhaps understand the reformist view. I'm not about to ask you to agree with it. So, if you are willing, I'd like you to allow me to tell you about Martin Luther.
But first, this verse. Romans 1:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
First appreciate that Martin Luther grew up in the 1500. He survived the days of black plague. I can't begin to tell you here what this man went through in terms of education, his life devoted to the church, his career as a professor of bible studies in Germany, but more than that you will never know what he faced in his day and had the courage to stand up to. You'd do well to read up on him. Anyone would.
I any case, these verse changed his life. (Romans 1:16-17).
GM, you have it in your head that Man uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the word, and you say this is man's faith in which he actuates by his choice to do so. saying that discredits the very thing you say this man needs before hand....you are giving too much credit to man and not enough to God.
We agree on many things. Man is not saved by his works - We agree
Man is saved by faith only - We agree however, you throw something extra in by default. You will say man is saved by
HIS faith - only I disagree and this is an important aspect that I want you to understand. I am begging you to at lest try to see it differently. Just this one adjustment in your thinking. Please.
The inevitable question is "Are you...You GM, Are you a sinner?" I'm not asking if you are a repentant sinner or willful sinner, but are you a sinner? Don't say yes, but I'm covered...I know that, just yes or no? Are you a sinner?
Now hold that thought....if you are then you deserve hell. If you are a sinner then you are unrighteous. If you are unrighteous then you don't measure up to God's standard, and if you do not measure up to God's standard then, you don't have what it takes to be saved, and you certainly never did before your where "saved", so how is it that you, in that condition, could possibly have anything to do with coming to God? You think "your" faith did that?
You had some super faith that perhaps made you want to hear the word, and then you r heard the word and used your faith to accept Christ?
I say you had no choice at that point if you had any faith at all, but again, you still want to believe that faith came from you. However, you've made other statements before that indicate you agree that faith comes from God.
So, then what do we do with Ephesians 2:8–9? 8 For by grace you have been saved bthrough
faith; and that not of yourselves, it
is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Calvin put it this way. "“[Paul] exhorts the Ephesians to remember (Ephesians 2) that they were saved by grace, not by themselves nor by their own works.... Faith, moreover, precedes justification, but in such a sense, that in respect of God, it follows. What they [Roman Catholics] say of faith might perhaps hold true, were faith itself, which puts us in possession of righteousness, our own. But seeing that it too is the free gift of God, the exception which they introduce is superfluous. Scripture, indeed, removes all doubt on another ground, when it opposes faith to works, to prevent its being classed among merits. Faith brings nothing of our own to God, but receives what God spontaneously offers us. Hence it is that faith, however imperfect, nevertheless possesses a perfect righteousness, because it has respect to nothing but the gratuitous goodness of God.” (John Calvin Acts of the Council of Trent With its Antidote, in The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection (Ages Digital Library, 1998), 110) .
So what about those verse and Martin Luther? Well, It is in verse 17 that we come to the real heart of our obtaining the gospel. This is the verse that plagued Martin Luther until he finally understood it.
Particularly, it is this phrase “the righteousness of God” that was crucial to Luther. Luther was a monk. He desired to obtain salvation by what he did. Luther not only held to the rules rigidly, but he confessed all his sins. In fact, he confessed so much and for so long every day that his confessor told him to stop confessing until he had done enough sin to confess! It wasn’t enough for Luther. He asked this question, “how can I stand before the holiness of my Judge with works polluted in their very source?”
When he looked at this phrase “the righteousness of God,” he understood it to mean the righteousness of God as judge, by which He condemns all sinners to everlasting torment. Now, the righteousness of God does do that to all who will not believe, but that is not what this verse is talking about. It was when Luther finally realized what this phrase meant that he was born again. Luther finally came to realize that here in Romans 1:17, the righteousness of God does not mean God’s condemning righteousness, but rather the righteousness of Christ that is given to us as a free gift when we exercise faith in Jesus Christ. What faith? the faith we get from God,...and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
You should thank God for your faith to begin with, otherwise for whom should you thank? Yourself? If we are not saved by our works, then we are not saved by any of our own effort. You can not have it both ways. Accepting Christ, is accepting salvation. Choice or condition? Because once one is in such a condition, there is NO choice but to accept what's obvious.
:biglol