Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[savedbygrace57]

LOL You don't see the word 'work" coupled with believe, either, but you keep harping on it. ;)



This one just takes a little common sense. I have a present for you, SbyG. Here it is if you want it.

Sure sounds like an offer to me.
I'm holding it out....I'm offering you this really pretty package, hoping you'll accept it.

Will you show us the word offer in Rom 5:18 ?


18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Come on man! How much more honest, direct and exposed can I be? What riddles I'm I throwing off for you to decipher? NONE!

Do I have a problem with my "fellow man"? - yes, kind of. Like me, he is a sinner.

I have all but written in crayon what I think of faith. I said that my fellow man does not have faith he was not first given by God. You think man musters his own faith. I disagree.

I am a reformist. You are not, but nor do I think you know what you truly believe. That's OK.

I am not faulting you for that, but I am faulting you for not having the intellectual integrity to at least try to understand what you think your theological adversaries believe! In the end, your contempt is a display of your own cretinous, not mine. However, by even being involved to this level might in fact be a display of mine.

I am trying to get you to see, perhaps understand the reformist view. I'm not about to ask you to agree with it. So, if you are willing, I'd like you to allow me to tell you about Martin Luther.

But first, this verse. Romans 1:16-17
New International Version (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.â€

First appreciate that Martin Luther grew up in the 1500. He survived the days of black plague. I can't begin to tell you here what this man went through in terms of education, his life devoted to the church, his career as a professor of bible studies in Germany, but more than that you will never know what he faced in his day and had the courage to stand up to. You'd do well to read up on him. Anyone would.

I any case, these verse changed his life. (Romans 1:16-17).

very thing you say this man needs before hand....you are giving too much credit to man and not enough to God. GM, you have it in your head that Man uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the word, and you say this is man's faith in which he actuates by his choice to do so. saying that discredits the

We agree on many things. Man is not saved by his works - We agree
Man is saved by faith only - We agree however, you throw something extra in by default. You will say man is saved by HIS faith - only I disagree and this is an important aspect that I want you to understand. I am begging you to at lest try to see it differently. Just this one adjustment in your thinking. Please.

The inevitable question is "Are you...You GM, Are you a sinner?" I'm not asking if you are a repentant sinner or willful sinner, but are you a sinner? Don't say yes, but I'm covered...I know that, just yes or no? Are you a sinner?

Now hold that thought....if you are then you deserve hell. If you are a sinner then you are unrighteous. If you are unrighteous then you don't measure up to God's standard, and if you do not measure up to God's standard then, you don't have what it takes to be saved, and you certainly never did before your where "saved", so how is it that you, in that condition, could possibly have anything to do with coming to God? You think "your" faith did that?



You had some super faith that perhaps made you want to hear the word, and then you r heard the word and used your faith to accept Christ?
So, then what do we do with Ephesians 2:8–9? 8 For by grace you have been saved bthrough faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Calvin put it this way. "“[Paul] exhorts the Ephesians to remember (Ephesians 2) that they were saved by grace, not by themselves nor by their own works.... Faith, moreover, precedes justification, but in such a sense, that in respect of God, it follows. What they [Roman Catholics] say of faith might perhaps hold true, were faith itself, which puts us in possession of righteousness, our own. But seeing that it too is the free gift of God, the exception which they introduce is superfluous. Scripture, indeed, removes all doubt on another ground, when it opposes faith to works, to prevent its being classed among merits. Faith brings nothing of our own to God, but receives what God spontaneously offers us. Hence it is that faith, however imperfect, nevertheless possesses a perfect righteousness, because it has respect to nothing but the gratuitous goodness of God.†(John Calvin Acts of the Council of Trent With its Antidote, in The Comprehensive John Calvin Collection (Ages Digital Library, 1998), 110) .

So what about those verse and Martin Luther? Well, It is in verse 17 that we come to the real heart of our obtaining the gospel. This is the verse that plagued Martin Luther until he finally understood it.

Particularly, it is this phrase “the righteousness of God†that was crucial to Luther. Luther was a monk. He desired to obtain salvation by what he did. Luther not only held to the rules rigidly, but he confessed all his sins. In fact, he confessed so much and for so long every day that his confessor told him to stop confessing until he had done enough sin to confess! It wasn’t enough for Luther. He asked this question, “how can I stand before the holiness of my Judge with works polluted in their very source?â€

When he looked at this phrase “the righteousness of God,†he understood it to mean the righteousness of God as judge, by which He condemns all sinners to everlasting torment. Now, the righteousness of God does do that to all who will not believe, but that is not what this verse is talking about. It was when Luther finally realized what this phrase meant that he was born again. Luther finally came to realize that here in Romans 1:17, the righteousness of God does not mean God’s condemning righteousness, but rather the righteousness of Christ that is given to us as a free gift when we exercise faith in Jesus Christ. What faith? the faith we get from God,...and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

You should thank God for your faith to begin with, otherwise for whom should you thank? Yourself? If we are not saved by our works, then we are not saved by any of our own effort. You can not have it both ways. Accepting Christ, is accepting salvation. Choice or condition? Because once one is in such a condition, there is NO choice but to accept what's obvious.

Danus-----I have all but written in crayon what I think of faith. I said that my fellow man does not have faith he was not first given by God. You think man musters his own faith. I disagree.

Grubal-----I agree that God created "ALL" men with "free-will" to believe in whatever they choose...You just don't believe God created men that way. Therein lies the difference between you and I...

Danus-----I am a reformist. You are not, but nor do I think you know what you truly believe. That's OK.

Grubal-----That is an extremely "smug" attitude and statement, and might I add, "unfounded." Condescension is "never" appreciated...And only creates "dissension."

Danus----I am not faulting you for that, but I am faulting you for not having the intellectual integrity to at least try to understand what you think your theological adversaries believe! In the end, your contempt is a display of your own cretinous, not mine. However, by even being involved to this level might in fact be a display of mine

Grubal---- You seem to "harbor" a plentiful amount of "animosity" towards someone who has an opposite opinion of your own....In fact, you have resorted to "name calling" (example,) cretin, really?? Name calling being, the "lowest " form of debate...

Danus----very thing you say this man needs before hand....you are giving too much credit to man and not enough to God. GM, you have it in your head that Man uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the word, and you say this is man's faith in which he actuates by his choice to do so. saying that discredits the

Grubal----You seem to have, taken it upon yourself to, "psychoanalyze" my belief system. And, I'm afraid you have "misinterpreted" the "entirety" of it...You seem to want to, fill in the blanks, with your own personal imaginative rationale." You have "dabbled" in, trying to "second guess" where I'm coming from. Why not simply just, "inquire" about what I truly believe,(straight from the horse mouth, so to say...)

Danus-----We agree on many things. Man is not saved by his works - We agree
Man is saved by faith only - We agree however, you throw something extra in by default. You will say man is saved by HIS faith - only I disagree and this is an important aspect that I want you to understand. I am begging you to at lest try to see it differently. Just this one adjustment in your thinking. Please.

Grubal----To be honest, I don't perceive you as being such a bad fellow. Your very, articulate, focused, and, for the most part, non-offensive nor aggressive...On the other hand, your a bit "pretentious" and somewhat "pompous." Anyway, back to the question. I do adhere to the truth that, ALL of mankind was created with an, "innate" ability to choose that which they believe...

Danus-----The inevitable question is "Are you...You GM, Are you a sinner?" I'm not asking if you are a repentant sinner or willful sinner, but are you a sinner? Don't say yes, but I'm covered...I know that, just yes or no? Are you a sinner?

Grubal----A sinner (must add a caveat,) saved by the Grace of God.

Danus----Now hold that thought....if you are then you deserve hell. If you are a sinner then you are unrighteous. If you are unrighteous then you don't measure up to God's standard, and if you do not measure up to God's standard then, you don't have what it takes to be saved, and you certainly never did before your where "saved", so how is it that you, in that condition, could possibly have anything to do with coming to God? You think "your" faith did that?

Grubal-----As a sinner, I have been "made" righteous before God, because of Christ... I first heard the word. The Holy Spirit used that word to "convince" me that I was a lost sinner without a Savior. I then "placed" my faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior...And I was placed into "the body of Christ" And am now considered a "child of God."

Danus-----You had some super faith that perhaps made you want to hear the word, and then you r heard the word and used your faith to accept Christ?

Grubal-----In my case, I (at twelve year's old) became fearful of a place called "Hell" I asked my Mother, "if we were going there." She not being a Christian replied, "I believe so." Within a few weeks after that conversation, we moved into a new apartment in California. My Sister, subsequently, befriended a neighbor girl who's Father was an assistant Pastor of a "Non-denominational" Christian church. The girls family began to "share the word." My Father had been a (non participant) of the "Methodist church, my Mother a, (nonparticipant Lutheran) You know, we were the family that went to church maybe once or twice a year (Christmas, Easter) Any way, our family heard the word presented and started going to the church. Eventually, our whole family placed our faith in Christ and became, lifelong Christians...The Holy Spirit had to "strive" with our hearts because we weren't church going people but, eventually we all believed...That's my testimony more or less...

Danus----So, then what do we do with Ephesians 2:8–9? For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Grubal----Glad you asked, here goes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God (now, here's where we must pay close attention. What is it that's "not" of ourselves?? The answer is, "God's grace is the gift." it's not talking about faith at this point, it's referring to the word "grace") not a result of "works" (man cannot earn God's grace through his works) so that no one may boast...So the "operative" word (so far as initiating our salvation) is the word "faith." Therefore, "For by grace you have been saved through (the process of faith) faith...

 

[francisdesales]

I'll take that as poking fun, and ignore the obvious intent.

At least I'm allowed to consider the Word of God, without everything having to go through the "church". ;)

I'm laughing at the "hypocrisy" of your statement, since such irony is funny to me:

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

In our numerous posts, you have shown me NOTHING from Scriptures that proves your point, while I have cited and could cite dozens of citations that tell us that God grants mercy without awaiting for utter perfection from the person asking for mercy.

Your "traditions of men" are keeping you from seeing what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say.

On second thought, I guess it is not so funny, after all... It is sad.

Regards

 

[reba]

When man uses his free will this is what he is....

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm laughing at the "hypocrisy" of your statement, since such irony is funny to me:

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

In our numerous posts, you have shown me NOTHING from Scriptures that proves your point, while I have cited and could cite dozens of citations that tell us that God grants mercy without awaiting for utter perfection from the person asking for mercy.

Your "traditions of men" are keeping you from seeing what the Scriptures ACTUALLY say.

On second thought, I guess it is not so funny, after all... It is sad.

Regards

Fran, first of all, allow me to be the first to, offer my sincerest "condolences" for your "bereavement" concerning, the "sadness" you're feeling for "glorydaz's "obvious" ability to be constant with his delivery of "truth." I know how you must feel under the harshest of circumstances...However, be of good cheer my fellow poster, for it be, possible that he, per chance, may someday say something that, fall short of the "uttermost" truthfulness." We must continue to hope for such a "glorious" day my friend...

 

[reba]

:waving

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[glorydaz]

When man uses his free will this is what he is....

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

We need to look at more than just this one portion of scripture because it's obviously a generalization of mankind.

Here are two of the first choices made...we know about Cain, but God had respect unto Abel and his offering.

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

From beginning to end, we see examples of people who do not fit into the Rom. 3 description of men.
We read about those who chose to do right, and we read of those who chose to do wrong.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: THEN BEGAN MEN TO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD

And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Then we have Abram and Lot, Jeremiah, Eli, David, Moses, Joshua and the list goes on. It's a long list of men and women utilizing their free will. Some are as described in Rom. 3, but certainly not all. Therefore, that portion of scripture cannot and is not a description of how all men use their free will.

The Scripture is replete with men seeking God...as did Hezekiah.

And thus did Hezekiah throughout all Judah, and wrought that which was good and right and truth before the LORD his God. And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered.[/red]

Anyway, I hope you get my point. Too many people take Romans 3 as an indictment of all men, but exageration is often used to get a point across, so we have to look at the whole Word...not just one portion.

 

[glorydaz]

:waving

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Reba, you certainly have a steady job around here, don't you? ;)

 

[glorydaz]

I any case, these verse changed his life. (Romans 1:16-17).

GM, you have it in your head that Man uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the word, and you say this is man's faith in which he actuates by his choice to do so. saying that discredits the very thing you say this man needs before hand....you are giving too much credit to man and not enough to God.

Here you go making false assumptions once again.
You're telling Grubal what he has in his head....you do that alot.

I believe, as Grubal does, that man has a free will, and I know quite well neither of us believes man "uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the Word." The measure of faith God has given all men is not a "power" in and of itself. The power is in the Word. Maybe you don't fully understand the POWER of the Gospel. Why are some men persuaded by the good news and others not? Why do some repent while others don't? Is it because some are on God's special list and the others are unable to hear?

Some aren't saved by the power of the Gospel message and it doesn't profit them, because it is "not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (From faith to faith)

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Your position suggests that God withholds faith from some and not from others.

It's God's grace that has dealt to "every man" a measure of faith.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

When he looked at this phrase “the righteousness of God,†he understood it to mean the righteousness of God as judge, by which He condemns all sinners to everlasting torment. Now, the righteousness of God does do that to all who will not believe, but that is not what this verse is talking about. It was when Luther finally realized what this phrase meant that he was born again. Luther finally came to realize that here in Romans 1:17, the righteousness of God does not mean God’s condemning righteousness, but rather the righteousness of Christ that is given to us as a free gift when we exercise faith in Jesus Christ.

Luther would be correct in saying we receive the righteousness of Christ when we are justified by faith in Him. This is His righteousness being accounted to us. No argument there. It's your explanation of faith I find wanting.

What faith? the faith we get from God,...and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The gift spoken of there is grace. When you speak of "what faith", you should know that man has his own inner faith, too, which is why from faith to faith is mentioned.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of faith.

From His faith to our faith. The power of the gospel of faith (faith of Christ) mixes with our faith.

When someone starts thinking every word used in the Bible, such as faith, belief, and salvation has only one meaning they'll always run into problems rightly dividing truth from error. I can see why so much error is being preached, if you think there is only one faith spoken of in the Word.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Here you go making false assumptions once again.
You're telling Grubal what he has in his head....you do that alot.

I believe, as Grubal does, that man has a free will, and I know quite well neither of us believes man "uses some sort of power within himself to come to Christ after hearing the Word." The measure of faith God has given all men is not a "power" in and of itself. The power is in the Word. Maybe you don't fully understand the POWER of the Gospel. Why are some men persuaded by the good news and others not? Why do some repent while others don't? Is it because some are on God's special list and the others are unable to hear?

Some aren't saved by the power of the Gospel message and it doesn't profit them, because it is "not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (From faith to faith)


Your position suggests that God withholds faith from some and not from others.

It's God's grace that has dealt to "every man" a measure of faith.




Luther would be correct in saying we receive the righteousness of Christ when we are justified by faith in Him. This is His righteousness being accounted to us. No argument there. It's your explanation of faith I find wanting.



The gift spoken of there is grace. When you speak of "what faith", you should know that man has his own inner faith, too, which is why from faith to faith is mentioned.



The Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of faith.

From His faith to our faith. The power of the gospel of faith (faith of Christ) mixes with our faith.

When someone starts thinking every word used in the Bible, such as faith, belief, and salvation has only one meaning they'll always run into problems rightly dividing truth from error. I can see why so much error is being preached, if you think there is only one faith spoken of in the Word.

WHOA!! Hearing truth like this, "astounds" me every time I encounter it...AMEN AND AMEN!!!

 

[Gazelle]

Hmmm It sounds to me as though even a person's accepting Christ's gift would be considered a "work." Is not repentance then a work by that definition? Does man have no responsibility at all in his obtaining eternal life then? But of course he does!
Semantics, perhaps?

 

[reba]

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[glorydaz]

Hmmm It sounds to me as though even a person's accepting Christ's gift would be considered a "work." Is not repentance then a work by that definition? Does man have no responsibility at all in his obtaining eternal life then? But of course he does!
Semantics, perhaps?

It would be wonderful if it were only semantics, Gazelle. Unfortunately, it's much more than that.

We see God commands all men everywhere to repent.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

We can't come, we can't believe, we can't follow, we can't eat the bread of life, we can't drink the water of salvation, we can't even look. The next thing we'll be hearing is if we obey any of His commands we're doing works to earn our salvation. Just sit back and let God save you if He wants, or damn you if He wants...you might be the elect and you might not.

Sorry, I just unloaded on you. It's very frustrating to hear the Word of God being adulterated at every turn and in every thread.

 

[francisdesales]

We must continue to hope for such a "glorious" day my friend...

Yes, I am hoping he picks up a Bible and reads a few Psalms, say 130 or 51. With an open mind, there is hope that the Spirit will touch his heart and recant of the error of his understanding that God is only merciful when the perfect are concerned...

It's hard to MISS "God is merciful" in the OLD Testament. BEFORE Jesus, the perfect Law follower!!!

One wonders how the two of you can compliment that fact with what you are "pedaling" here....

Regards

 

[Gazelle]

NP Glory. What, does man simply lie in his hammock awaiting God's salvation to be bestowed upon him, doing nothing at all? No. For if you don't actively accept Christ, then you cannot enter heaven.

Perhaps it is semantics that confuses this member? However, it is the attitude of the heart, the contrite spirit that causes repentance with a man. Is contrition then a work? If God does everything, then man has no free will and we are all just a part of God's big virtual reality game.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes, I am hoping he picks up a Bible and reads a few Psalms, say 130 or 51. With an open mind, there is hope that the Spirit will touch his heart and recant of the error of his understanding that God is only merciful when the perfect are concerned...

It's hard to MISS "God is merciful" in the OLD Testament. BEFORE Jesus, the perfect Law follower!!!

One wonders how the two of you can compliment that fact with what you are "pedaling" here....

Regards

Indeed my fellow poster. Every time some "ne'er-do-well." attempts to spread truth through some "dastardly" means, it only "encroaches" upon those who would deny it...There is, truly "injustice" in this imperfect world. And there are some whom would betray the sanctity of falsehood...

 

[Danus]

Yes, I am hoping he picks up a Bible and reads a few Psalms, say 130 or 51. With an open mind, there is hope that the Spirit will touch his heart and recant of the error of his understanding that God is only merciful when the perfect are concerned...

It's hard to MISS "God is merciful" in the OLD Testament. BEFORE Jesus, the perfect Law follower!!!

One wonders how the two of you can compliment that fact with what you are "pedaling" here....

Regards

I think they are twins. Perhaps Siamese twins. I've never seen them apart.

 

[francisdesales]

Indeed my fellow poster. Every time some "ne'er-do-well." attempts to spread truth through some "dastardly" means, it only "encroaches" upon those who would deny it...There is, truly "injustice" in this imperfect world. And there are some whom would betray the sanctity of falsehood...

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "betray the sanctity of falsehood". Is there holiness found in falsehood?

Thanks for clearing this up...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think they are twins. Perhaps Siamese twins. I've never seen them apart.

The funny part is when they are cheerleading for the other...

Regards

 

[Danus]

If everyone could put their doctrine aside and hear the Word, the Spirit could work and maturity would come.

:biglol

I'll take that as poking fun, and ignore the obvious intent.

At least I'm allowed to consider the Word of God, without everything having to go through the "church". ;)

Thank you Glory. Your post here has made me realize something I must do.

I am going to call my good friend J.L. (Not that you would know him) and apologize to him for everything I said to him years ago to try and talk him out of the seminary. I now see some of the greater importance of his calling and mission.

Thank you again. :waving