Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[ivdavid]

Would you say that man has the "freewill" to resist the corrupting enslavement to sin, all by himself? If not, would you then agree that man's will is not entirely "free" to do God's will as long as it's under the power of sin, and apart from the grace of God?

Unregenerate man does not seek to do God's will.

If you could also give an unambiguous "yes/no/I've not been revealed that yet" in your response, it would help me understand where exactly you're coming from, in what you've said. Note, I do not expect only an objective one-word reply - I need the context, but even such context could yield to misunderstanding when not specified against precise terms. I hope you do understand the difficulty in semantics.

Can I then take your above reply to be a "Yes, man does not have the freewill to resist sin and do God's will, all by himself and apart from the grace of God."?

If so, God's grace is by default, already continually resistible. What sense is there in again providing a choice to man on whether he wishes to be freed according to the will of God by His grace, when such man is still under sin and cannot anyway choose to act according to God's will?

Must not such grace itself be irresistible? Again, to use Glorydaz's reference to Scripture, must not God open the prison doors Himself, without waiting for permission from the prison inmates? I consider God's work of regeneration as the opening of the prison doors - how can it be based on man's choice?

I also am aware that you believe man is "free" to use his (God-given) ability to believe in anything he so chooses. Is this ability and choice of man not corrupted and enslaved by sin? If it is, then how is it "free"? If it's not, then why need God's grace?

 

[glorydaz]

God has done everything that can be done to save our never die-ing soul.

Except save our never die-ing.

I would wonder why hearing the gospel was so important to Jesus that he revealed that gospel message to Paul and then sent him to preach that same gospel to us Gentiles ?

Why send Paul to tell us about the grace he is offering?

Paul instructs us that if it be grace it is no more works other wise grace is no more grace right?

Yes, that's exactly what Paul says. Grace is God's mercy upon sinful man, and the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. What the Gospel does, exactly, is to lift up Jesus Christ so man will be drawn to His light.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

There is real power in the word of God....this is what convinces men of their sin, and it gets right to the "heart" of man like a sword of truth.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We know that we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. That's why we're sent to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[glorydaz]

Not trying to hurt you, and I'm not angry. I'm am challenging you and your thoughts and I'm tired of hearing Christian cliche's from you. Let's get down to bass tacks and defend your belief or ask questions. or both.

We have plenty of common ground. The last few post where to shake you up. I'm not mean or hateful but I say what I think and I've heard some light weight contradictions I want to challenge in regard to your free will, and it's value to your salvation. I say it has no value at all, and if not for God choosing you before the foundation of the world, you would not know him even if you heard his word.

I, for one, don't need shaken up.

Why do you think Jesus said this?

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

We're to learn of Him not cause strife and contention in the body.

A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

If you really want to know why we believe man has the abilitiy to choose God, you'll have to go to the Word of God and not just make statements about it. Perhaps you're unwilling to do that, but that's what I'm interested in. What you think, or what Grubal thinks, or what I think doesn't matter in the least. It's only what God says that counts.

 

[glorydaz]

But what about man's free will. If man has free will to chose God, come to God...ect, yet only God does anything through man...then what is the value of man's free will to seek God before he is saved if he can't do anything good after he is saved on his own?

You see where I'm at?

I think I do.

In Romans 1 and 2, we see the general condition of man before he's saved. I know a lot of attention is paid to what man does when he fails to follow God's law in his conscience, but God did give us a conscience for a reason. We see God all around us, in nature, and we see God's lovingkindness as well as His wrath. Deep inside every man is a desire to know His Creator. He doesn't know where to look, but he was created to have fellowship with God, and now God is missing.

We know that Abel wanted to please God and Cain got angry when God wouldn't accept his offering. Throughout the OT, we see men who want to know God and men who turn away from God. We're born innocent, but every time we sin, our conscience gets dulled more and more.

Since sin is in the world, the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes, and the pride of life move us farther from God.

When God draws us, He works on our circumstances, and prepares our hearts in all the different ways God does.

I recognize it as "knocking" from the scripture in Rev.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Here's where I see man's free will come into the picture. We hear the knocking on the door. We hear His voice (through the Gospel message). We can open the door, or we can ignore the knocking, and continue in disobedience to God. That's pretty much the extent of free will before we're saved. God calls all men to repentance, some respond sooner than others, and some have a conscience so seared God can finally give them up. He knows who will come, because He's God and has foreknowledge, but it's up to us to open the door. Jesus says "come" all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

If we open the door, Jesus comes in and then we're His. We delight to do His bidding because He replaces our heart of stone with a heart of flesh. We're born again and a new creature. But we're still able to disobey God. We should know that from practical experience. But, now, we're sons of God and He chastens us as children until we do as He wants.

I believe this is supported many places in the Word. None show it better than this one in Matthew. You can hear God's desire for them to come.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

And this where we're told to choose life...

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The Lord says, "Ye WOULD NOT". That alone shows me that man has a choice in the matter.

For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Huummmm deep thinker ...I think your notion is that, Certainly God does not need us to preach his word. I follow you there. It is for his glory that he allows us to witness at all, first and foremost, and we gladly do it, not so much for the command, but for the great privilege.

Mark 16:15 says, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

However, God told the disciples and expects the believers to preach the word...

Romans 10:14 says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

How can you say, "( Certainly God does not need us to preach his word.) He told the disciples (and wants us) to spread the word...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, no, that's not correct. Nothing was said about man's ability to save himself. I've presented a lot of scripture that I believe supports what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, you have lumped me in with a certain theology so you've already decided you know what I mean. I can see you don't. Probably I'm somewhere in between Calvin and Armenian.

I didn't realize we were here to learn about the reformist view. I figured we were here to talk about the Word of God. And, you're correct, I have no desire to study any man's understanding of what the Word says. I'm here to discuss what the Word of God actually says apart from the any certain doctrine of man.

Subvert? Why did Paul admonish the believers in Corinth? For the very reason we're even having this discussion. People have a tendency to follow after some man when we're to be following after Christ.


We are members of the body of Christ. There is a priesthood of the believers where we are all taught of God. We are taught by the Holy Spirit directly from the Word. The problem with any particular doctrine is that, over time, the doctrine becomes more important than the living Word. It's like the whisper game, and the original ideas of the old church fathers are hardened and tweaked. That's why we're to reason together, and listen to what the Spirit teaches. Fresh, without having to go through truths that may have gotten lost as men add more and more.

I believe we are each responsible, not to support a particular doctrine, but to see what we can glean from the Scripture, itself. The Holy Spirit should always be given free rein to speak to us directly from the Word of God without having it pass through any particular doctrinal test.

Whoa!! Everything you said, was precise and on point...

 

[glorydaz]

Unregenerate man does not seek to do God's will. He is merely left to his "conscience" and an ability to do bad (sin) and to do "worldly good" (which is of no Spiritual benefit) Until, he hears the word preached, combined with the conviction of the Spirit, and places his faith in Christ, he is left to his own sinful nature and his own conscience...

Agreed. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here in this thread that there are some who believe a more all-encompassing "free will" than we do Grubal. Maybe we believe in "Limited Freewill." We might have to start our own group, huh? lol

Man can certainly be morally upright before he's saved, but what good will it do them if they don't come to know the Lord? They'll find no real peace, and worry and fear never really leave their side. I can remember when I got saved, I felt like the sun had come out on a cloudy day. What hope and joy fill your soul when you open that door and feel the Love of God fill your soul.

Ah well, it's late and I'm getting all sentimental and rambling, sorry. I'm betting I'm the last one up.

 

[glorydaz]

Must not such grace itself be irresistible? Again, to use Glorydaz's reference to Scripture, must not God open the prison doors Himself, without waiting for permission from the prison inmates? I consider God's work of regeneration as the opening of the prison doors - how can it be based on man's choice?

I'll let Grubal answer for himself, but I couldn't resist this one.

I say Jesus' death on the cross opened the prison door, but man has to choose to walk out of the cell.

and

Jesus knocks on the door, but we have to open it.

I don't know if that resistable or irresistable grace. I don't really get that.

 

[glorydaz]

Mark 16:15 says, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

However, God told the disciples and expects the believers to preach the word...

Romans 10:14 says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

How can you say, "( Certainly God does not need us to preach his word.) He told the disciples (and wants us) to spread the word...

That should be our main mission in life.
We're to spread the Good News.
After all, it's a matter of life and death.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If you could also give an unambiguous "yes/no/I've not been revealed that yet" in your response, it would help me understand where exactly you're coming from, in what you've said. Note, I do not expect only an objective one-word reply - I need the context, but even such context could yield to misunderstanding when not specified against precise terms. I hope you do understand the difficulty in semantics.

Can I then take your above reply to be a "Yes, man does not have the freewill to resist sin and do God's will, all by himself and apart from the grace of God."?

If so, God's grace is by default, already continually resistible. What sense is there in again providing a choice to man on whether he wishes to be freed according to the will of God by His grace, when such man is still under sin and cannot anyway choose to act according to God's will?

Must not such grace itself be irresistible? Again, to use Glorydaz's reference to Scripture, must not God open the prison doors Himself, without waiting for permission from the prison inmates? I consider God's work of regeneration as the opening of the prison doors - how can it be based on man's choice?

I also am aware that you believe man is "free" to use his (God-given) ability to believe in anything he so chooses. Is this ability and choice of man not corrupted and enslaved by sin? If it is, then how is it "free"? If it's not, then why need God's grace?

ivdavid-----Can I then take your above reply to be a "Yes, man does not have the freewill to resist sin and do God's will, all by himself and apart from the grace of God."?

Grubal-----Give me an example of what you mean by God's will?? (be specific about what area of "will" your asking about) And again I ask you, what would make an "unbeliever" forsake his sinful desires, in order to do the will of God?? As opposed to a "born-again believer" indwelt by the Holy Spirit?? Some questions aren't yes and no answers. there are some "grey" areas worth delving into in order to explore deeper meaning...

ivdavid-----If so, God's grace is by default, already continually resistible. What sense is there in again providing a choice to man on whether he wishes to be freed according to the will of God by His grace, when such man is still under sin and cannot anyway choose to act according to God's will?

Grubal-----When you "hear" the word of your salvation and the Holy Spirit is working on your heart and bringing about conviction of sin and so on, you stand before that truth with all your sins "intact." The Spirit will not coerce or force God's mercy and forgiveness (through Christ) onto the "hearer" of the word. But will convict that person of the need for a Savior because of his sin...The person still has "free-will" to choose, if he will place his faith in Christ or not...It's God's will that ALL people come to Christ. But, they must come by their faith... You see, "God's WILL is for us to be saved, our free-will (given to us by God) chooses if we will receive it or not...

ivdavid----- Must not such grace itself be irresistible? Again, to use Glorydaz's reference to Scripture, must not God open the prison doors Himself, without waiting for permission from the prison inmates? I consider God's work of regeneration as the opening of the prison doors - how can it be based on man's choice?

Grubal-----Yes, it is "resistible"because of "free-will." God did open the prison doors, by providing a way (through Christ) To draw an analogy, "the prison door has been opened by Christ, but we must step out of that prison (our choice) Grace+faith+ being born-again= eternal life...That's the order of this process...

ivdavid-----I also am aware that you believe man is "free" to use his (God-given) ability to believe in anything he so chooses. Is this ability and choice of man not corrupted and enslaved by sin? If it is, then how is it "free"? If it's not, then why need God's grace?

Grubal-----We have been given (by God our creator) free-will and the ability to "choose" what ever we want to place our faith in. Man indeed is corrupted by sin. But, because of that fact, free-will cannot be "negated" lest it become, "non-effectual" Then it is no longer, free-will. God has provided forgiveness of sin to ALL of mankind. But, not ALL will receive it, "God's way," and that is, "by faith."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Agreed. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here in this thread that there are some who believe a more all-encompassing "free will" than we do Grubal. Maybe we believe in "Limited Freewill." We might have to start our own group, huh? lol

Man can certainly be morally upright before he's saved, but what good will it do them if they don't come to know the Lord? They'll find no real peace, and worry and fear never really leave their side. I can remember when I got saved, I felt like the sun had come out on a cloudy day. What hope and joy fill your soul when you open that door and feel the Love of God fill your soul.

Ah well, it's late and I'm getting all sentimental and rambling, sorry. I'm betting I'm the last one up.

I think your on to something "Brother"...Not a bad idea, "limited free-will" it's got a ring to it!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

That should be our main mission in life.
We're to spread the Good News.
After all, it's a matter of life and death.

AMEN!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'll let Grubal answer for himself, but I couldn't resist this one.

I say Jesus' death on the cross opened the prison door, but man has to choose to walk out of the cell.

and

Jesus knocks on the door, but we have to open it.

I don't know if that resistable or irresistable grace. I don't really get that.

We are in accord!!!!

 

[ivdavid]

Some questions aren't yes and no answers. there are some "grey" areas worth delving into in order to explore deeper meaning...

Yes...I am willing to clarify to whatever extent you need - I agree one cannot respond unambiguously to questions that may seem ambiguous.

Give me an example of what you mean by God's will??

Love God and love neighbor as yourself. Can the unregenerated man fulfill this?

And again I ask you, what would make an "unbeliever" forsake his sinful desires, in order to do the will of God?? As opposed to a "born-again believer" indwelt by the Holy Spirit??

Since the unbeliever is enslaved to sin in his flesh, he would never be able to do the will of God - as opposed to the believer in whom God works by the power of His Spirit.

Man indeed is corrupted by sin. But, because of that fact, free-will cannot be "negated" lest it become, "non-effectual" Then it is no longer, free-will.

This is dangerous reasoning, Grubal. You seem to hold freewill as a given first premise from which you are concluding upon the sinfulness of sin. I suggest you do it the other way around - analyze the sinfulness of sin and then conclude upon the extent of the freedom of the will from that.

And again, how would you define "freewill"?
I'd say it is the ability to choose to act upon a particular option, without any other overpowering influence inclining us this way or that.

If you agree to the above working definition, wouldn't you say that sin in the flesh is that overpowering influence that inclines us into not loving God and not loving neighbor as ourselves, by ourselves and apart from the grace of God.

 

[ivdavid]

God did open the prison doors, by providing a way (through Christ)

I say Jesus' death on the cross opened the prison door,

I consider God's work of regeneration as the opening of the prison doors

What then is this salvation experience we witness to, Glorydaz? Is it the moment we chose to walk out of the already opened prison cell - or is it the day God chose to open the closed prison cell?

What then is the purpose of regeneration? What is being changed here, that is not already functional according to the will of God? Is man in the flesh able to obey any of God's commandments - if so, why then the need for a new nature?

Can the natural man in the flesh discern enough spiritual truth to be able to act according to it - why then is there the need to be born in the spirit?

 

[Chris]

what I think dont matter but what god got guys to write in the bible does.

Salvation is a gift of grace from god the father for those that believe in his son Jesus.
The deed done here is submission and repentance of a sinful life. one becomes a follower of Jesus.

Works are gratitude and evidence of an indwelling holy spirit.


I bet that has been said a few times before on this thread or something like it lol.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes...I am willing to clarify to whatever extent you need - I agree one cannot respond unambiguously to questions that may seem ambiguous.


Love God and love neighbor as yourself. Can the unregenerated man fulfill this?


Since the unbeliever is enslaved to sin in his flesh, he would never be able to do the will of God - as opposed to the believer in whom God works by the power of His Spirit.


This is dangerous reasoning, Grubal. You seem to hold freewill as a given first premise from which you are concluding upon the sinfulness of sin. I suggest you do it the other way around - analyze the sinfulness of sin and then conclude upon the extent of the freedom of the will from that.

And again, how would you define "freewill"?
I'd say it is the ability to choose to act upon a particular option, without any other overpowering influence inclining us this way or that.

If you agree to the above working definition, wouldn't you say that sin in the flesh is that overpowering influence that inclines us into not loving God and not loving neighbor as ourselves, by ourselves and apart from the grace of God.

ivdavid-----Love God and love neighbor as yourself. Can the unregenerated man fulfill this?

Grubal-----To be able to "love" with the Spirit within us, is the fullest and more beneficial way to love... I don't believe that the "unregenerate" can truly love God as he ought...Because he is limited in his understanding and appreciation of who he's creator truly is...And he, has not the Spirit of God dwelling in him...So he may say, he loves God, but it's merely "lip service, for he does not have a true relationship with God through Christ....The unsaved have love for their neighbor but, it is a not a "Spiritual" kind of love. It's not usually, selfless nor sacrificial in nature...

ivdavid-----Since the unbeliever is enslaved to sin in his flesh, he would never be able to do the will of God - as opposed to the believer in whom God works by the power of His Spirit.

Grubal-----He certainly would not have the influence of the indwelling "Spirit" However, there have been situations in the Bible where God, in one way or the other, influenced an "unbeliever" to achieve His ultimate will....God wants ALL to come to Christ, but God does not infringe on the free-will He has given man. So you could say, It's God's will for ALL to be saved, however, God has given each man a right of free-will to choose what he will believe...

ivdavid-----This is dangerous reasoning, Grubal. You seem to hold freewill as a given first premise from which you are concluding upon the sinfulness of sin. I suggest you do it the other way around - analyze the sinfulness of sin and then conclude upon the extent of the freedom of the will from that.

Grubal-----Could you rephrase what you said here. I didn't comprehend what you were getting at??

ivdavid-----And again, how would you define "freewill"?
I'd say it is the ability to choose to act upon a particular option, without any other overpowering influence inclining us this way or that.

Grubal----That's a reasonable definition...

ivdavid----If you agree to the above working definition, wouldn't you say that sin in the flesh is that overpowering influence that inclines us into not loving God and not loving neighbor as ourselves, by ourselves and apart from the grace of God.

Grubal-----Again, our sinfulness keeps us from loving as we ought, in a "Spiritual" way...Once we have the Spirit residing within, we can love in a more, selfless and sacrificial way. As the Spirit works to conform us into the image of God's Son... I hope I passed this final???

 

[Grubal Muruch]

what I think dont matter but what god got guys to write in the bible does.

Salvation is a gift of grace from god the father for those that believe in his son Jesus.
The deed done here is submission and repentance of a sinful life. one becomes a follower of Jesus.

Works are gratitude and evidence of an indwelling holy spirit.


I bet that has been said a few times before on this thread or something like it lol.

Not bad mate!!!

 

[ivdavid]

Love God and love neighbor as yourself. Can the unregenerated man fulfill this?

I don't believe that the "unregenerate" can truly love God as he ought...
The unsaved have love for their neighbor but, it is a not a "Spiritual" kind of love. It's not usually, selfless nor sacrificial in nature...

Is there anything still ambiguous in my question that you require clarification on? If not, could you give the same answer with an additional "yes/no/not yet revealed to me" ?

I'd say - "No, it's not possible for the unregenerate man to ever love God or love his neighbor as himself". Having stated my position on this, I'd back that up with the understanding that the unregenerate man is still in the flesh and that one in the flesh can never obey God's law. This being the very reason one requires to be regenerated - being created with a new spiritual nature through which God works in man to will and to do according to His pleasure.

Does God command a fleshly love towards Him and our neighbors? Or does God command us to love in spirit? I'd say that it is God's will that each man loves God and loves his neighbor as himself, in spirit - and if that is not the case, then God's will is not done in all such cases. So I'd conclude that sin in the flesh does not permit the unregenerate(who are still in the flesh) to ever obey the will of God on how man ought to love, until enabled by the regenerative work of God.

wouldn't you say that sin in the flesh is that overpowering influence that inclines us into not loving God and not loving neighbor as ourselves, by ourselves and apart from the grace of God.

Again, our sinfulness keeps us from loving as we ought, in a "Spiritual" way...

You too seem to agree that it is God's will that we ought to love in spirit - and that sin in our flesh opposes that. Then why exactly are you hesitant to directly address the question - is not sin an overpowering influence that keeps the unregenerate from doing God's will?

Is this question ambiguous in any way, and if so, I'd like to know what you need me to clarify for you on this.

 

[Stormcrow]

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

For what it's worth.