Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[Danus]

Grubal----You have a great "misunderstanding" of what I personally believe. Although I've made it perfectly clear. Man must first hear the word of his salvation, then The Spirit convicts of sin that self same man, then that man must "choose" if he will put his faith in Christ. If he does, then the Spirit places such a man in the "body of Christ" and he is born- again Spiritually...It's not a matter of getting a reward for doing good, it's a matter of having our sins forgiven through Christ's atonement on the cross. In order to, walk the walk, the Spirit must be indwelt in the believer. We come before God a lost sinner without a Savior and by faith receive Christ and thereby, become a child of God... This has nothing to do with how "good" we are...

I do not adhere to Armenian nor Calvinism. They both leave much to be desired so far as I'm concerned...

Thanks for clearing that up. You still believe in the free will of man to choose God. That placed you in the Armenia camp within your theology. So that's where I have to address it.

Grubal-----Man does "not" save himself by coming to God...Man is drawn by the Gospel preached, the conviction of the Spirit, placing his (mans) faith in Christ and Him crucified and the rest is the work of the Holy Spirit...Man "only" has to believe. (period)

Grubal----- evidently you didn't read everything I wrote, Many years ago I was into Calvinism, but have since (over the years) seen the light, so to say...Calvinism is not of the truth...I know the history of John Calvin.


Grubal-----I wouldn't put Paul's name in there with the rest my friend...There's no comparison whatsoever...

GM, Your saying you where once a "Calvanist", what ever that is, leans nothing to your credibility against John Calvin. ....I'm sorry, but your theology leans to Armenian. I don't have a problem with your belief for you, nor do I think your less of a Christian or not saved or anything like that.

The trouble I have with you, from your post, and the threads you start, is that to me you are dishonest.

You ask questions about Calvin and you lie in wait for someone to honestly answer you so that you can attack them, as if you are somehow "saving" them
with your brilliant knowledge of the bible. Then you want say you have no label for your theology as if no one has had the thoughts you've had.

What are you honestly attempting to accomplish? Do you think your saving people from John Calvin?

There are no "Calvanist", only a guy named John Calvin who simply expanded on the reform theology of his day. Luther is credited for starting the reformation in the 1500's, but that does not mean he was the only one to have the thoughts he wrote back then. Lot's of people did. The "church" had become so far corrupt in it's own dealings, power, and theology that many people saw a need for change. That's why the reformation started. Luther was only the spark. The gas was all around.

However, what Luther and Calvin and others did, even John Wesley, who is Armenian, they simply took theology back to the bible.

This is a widely recognized fact and truth backed up by men far more brilliant than you or I. Your not bringing anything new to the table here.

If you want to say what you believe then fine, but honestly your not very clear. You keep stating the same thing over and over and when someone calls you out you turn another direction or you replay what you've said; Man must first hear the word of his salvation, then The Spirit convicts of sin that self same man, then that man must "choose" if he will put his faith in Christ. OK, can you expand on that, because that's not the full story of what you believe. I say that your right, man must first hear the word of God, but just hearing it does nothing because not everyone is saved from in this. However, if a man is "convicted by the spirit of God, then it is by the will of God and NOT that man, because it is the only way that man can possibly accept the word of God and know he is a sinner.

Once he knows he is a sinner, he also knows he deserves Hell. Nothing he does saves him from the fact that he is a sinner. Just go ask unrepentant sinners. Tell them they are going to Hell and they will laugh at you. Why? because they have not been convicted by the spirit of God, and they are left to their own free will to do only as they can with it. That is the very basic understanding of John Calvin and other including Paul.

 

[kjb1769]

I'm wondering how long this the same debate has been going on?

My 1599 Geneva Bible has Calvin's notes in it so I would assume since sometime before then right?

I can certainly see in scripture where Paul explains that "belief" in the "word of truth" the "gospel of your salvation" is revealed to us Gentiles but I still haven't seen where Paul tells us about works that must be accomplished for salvation. Where would I find that?

 

[Danus]

I'm wondering how long this the same debate has been going on?

My 1599 Geneva Bible has Calvin's notes in it so I would assume since sometime before then right?

I can certainly see in scripture where Paul explains that "belief" in the "word of truth" the "gospel of your salvation" is revealed to us Gentiles but I still haven't seen where Paul tells us about works that must be accomplished for salvation. Where would I find that?

I'd love to answer it, but you'll have to hope someone else can shed light on it. For the record I answered Faith as being necessarily for salvation. then we got into where that faith comes from, and I said, it's a gift from God. others indicate it's man's will to have the faith. Which I label "works" IE Man's will, man's desire, his own effort....works.

 

[kjb1769]

God has done everything that can be done to save our never die-ing soul.

Except save our never die-ing.

I would wonder why hearing the gospel was so important to Jesus that he revealed that gospel message to Paul and then sent him to preach that same gospel to us Gentiles ?

Why send Paul to tell us about the grace he is offering?

Paul instructs us that if it be grace it is no more works other wise grace is no more grace right?

 

[Danus]

God has done everything that can be done to save our never die-ing soul.

Except save our never die-ing.

I would wonder why hearing the gospel was so important to Jesus that he revealed that gospel message to Paul and then sent him to preach that same gospel to us Gentiles ?

Why send Paul to tell us about the grace he is offering?

Paul instructs us that if it be grace it is no more works other wise grace is no more grace right?

Huummmm deep thinker ...I think your notion is that, Certainly God does not need us to preach his word. I follow you there. It is for his glory that he allows us to witness at all, first and foremost, and we gladly do it, not so much for the command, but for the great privilege.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Thanks for clearing that up. You still believe in the free will of man to choose God. That placed you in the Armenia camp within your theology. So that's where I have to address it.



GM, Your saying you where once a "Calvanist", what ever that is, leans nothing to your credibility against John Calvin. ....I'm sorry, but your theology leans to Armenian. I don't have a problem with your belief for you, nor do I think your less of a Christian or not saved or anything like that.

The trouble I have with you, from your post, and the threads you start, is that to me you are dishonest.

You ask questions about Calvin and you lie in wait for someone to honestly answer you so that you can attack them, as if you are somehow "saving" them
with your brilliant knowledge of the bible. Then you want say you have no label for your theology as if no one has had the thoughts you've had.

What are you honestly attempting to accomplish? Do you think your saving people from John Calvin?

There are no "Calvanist", only a guy named John Calvin who simply expanded on the reform theology of his day. Luther is credited for starting the reformation in the 1500's, but that does not mean he was the only one to have the thoughts he wrote back then. Lot's of people did. The "church" had become so far corrupt in it's own dealings, power, and theology that many people saw a need for change. That's why the reformation started. Luther was only the spark. The gas was all around.

However, what Luther and Calvin and others did, even John Wesley, who is Armenian, they simply took theology back to the bible.

This is a widely recognized fact and truth backed up by men far more brilliant than you or I. Your not bringing anything new to the table here.

If you want to say what you believe then fine, but honestly your not very clear. You keep stating the same thing over and over and when someone calls you out you turn another direction or you replay what you've said; Man must first hear the word of his salvation, then The Spirit convicts of sin that self same man, then that man must "choose" if he will put his faith in Christ. OK, can you expand on that, because that's not the full story of what you believe. I say that your right, man must first hear the word of God, but just hearing it does nothing because not everyone is saved from in this. However, if a man is "convicted by the spirit of God, then it is by the will of God and NOT that man, because it is the only way that man can possibly accept the word of God and know he is a sinner.

Once he knows he is a sinner, he also knows he deserves Hell. Nothing he does saves him from the fact that he is a sinner. Just go ask unrepentant sinners. Tell them they are going to Hell and they will laugh at you. Why? because they have not been convicted by the spirit of God, and they are left to their own free will to do only as they can with it. That is the very basic understanding of John Calvin and other including Paul.

Where's all this anger and hostility actually coming from. I think it's better to have a cordial and mutually civil conversation take place, than to have a contentious free for all. Hopefully we should be able to contend for the faith, and be respectful towards those who are not necessarily, aligned towards our way of reasoning...It's not at all in the interest of common fellowship to be adversarial in our approach to different aspects of doctrinal dispute...We should seek common ground based upon mutually accepted areas of agreement...Not relish in disputations that bring about wrath incurred anti-social behavior. Such as, name calling, disrespectful and humiliating transient hurtful remarks and obligatory "snide" and ruthless verbal sword play...

 

[Danus]

Where's all this anger and hostility actually coming from. I think it's better to have a cordial and mutually civil conversation take place, than to have a contentious free for all. Hopefully we should be able to contend for the faith, and be respectful towards those who are not necessarily, aligned towards our way of reasoning...It's not at all in the interest of common fellowship to be adversarial in our approach to different aspects of doctrinal dispute...We should seek common ground based upon mutually accepted areas of agreement...Not relish in disputations that bring about wrath incurred anti-social behavior. Such as, name calling, disrespectful and humiliating transient hurtful remarks and obligatory "snide" and ruthless verbal sword play...

Not trying to hurt you, and I'm not angry. I'm am challenging you and your thoughts and I'm tired of hearing Christian cliche's from you. Let's get down to bass tacks and defend your belief or ask questions. or both.

We have plenty of common ground. The last few post where to shake you up. I'm not mean or hateful but I say what I think and I've heard some light weight contradictions I want to challenge in regard to your free will, and it's value to your salvation. I say it has no value at all, and if not for God choosing you before the foundation of the world, you would not know him even if you heard his word.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Not trying to hurt you, and I'm not angry. I'm am challenging you and your thoughts and I'm tired of hearing Christian cliche's from you. Let's get down to bass tacks and defend your belief or ask questions. or both.

We have plenty of common ground. The last few post where to shake you up. I'm not mean or hateful but I say what I think and I've heard some light weight contradictions I want to challenge in regard to your free will, and it's value to your salvation. I say it has no value at all, and if not for God choosing you before the foundation of the world, you would not know him even if you heard his word.

How did you get saved, and are you assured within yourself of your eternal destination?? And why?? That's good for a starter...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm wondering how long this the same debate has been going on?

My 1599 Geneva Bible has Calvin's notes in it so I would assume since sometime before then right?

I can certainly see in scripture where Paul explains that "belief" in the "word of truth" the "gospel of your salvation" is revealed to us Gentiles but I still haven't seen where Paul tells us about works that must be accomplished for salvation. Where would I find that?

You won't my friend, it does not exist...The formula is fairly simple, "Grace+faith+being born-again=eternal life!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Not trying to hurt you, and I'm not angry. I'm am challenging you and your thoughts and I'm tired of hearing Christian cliche's from you. Let's get down to bass tacks and defend your belief or ask questions. or both.

We have plenty of common ground. The last few post where to shake you up. I'm not mean or hateful but I say what I think and I've heard some light weight contradictions I want to challenge in regard to your free will, and it's value to your salvation. I say it has no value at all, and if not for God choosing you before the foundation of the world, you would not know him even if you heard his word.

Pre-Foundational election is not of the truth. It does not exist. God, foreknew who would come by faith to His Son, and predestined those who did, to become conformed to the image of His Son... Foreknowledge is not predestination by election. There's a vast schism between these two opposite definitions...Man can and does receive God's mercy and forgiveness/eternal life by the hearing of the word, conviction of the Spirit, and by placing his faith in Christ, his only hope of salvation, and God's only "provision" for man's redemption...

 

[ivdavid]

Grubal Muruch,

Would you like to share your belief on this -

Would you say that man has the "freewill" to resist the corrupting enslavement to sin, all by himself? If not, would you then agree that man's will is not entirely "free" to do God's will as long as it's under the power of sin, and apart from the grace of God?

 

[Danus]

How did you get saved, and are you assured within yourself of your eternal destination?? And why?? That's good for a starter...

Yes that's fair. I am packing for a hiking trip, but want to give this fair treatment. I'll try to get it in tomorrow. Catch you then.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal Muruch,

Would you like to share your belief on this -

Would you say that man has the "freewill" to resist the corrupting enslavement to sin, all by himself? If not, would you then agree that man's will is not entirely "free" to do God's will as long as it's under the power of sin, and apart from the grace of God?

Unregenerate man does not seek to do God's will. He is merely left to his "conscience" and an ability to do bad (sin) and to do "worldly good" (which is of no Spiritual benefit) Until, he hears the word preached, combined with the conviction of the Spirit, and places his faith in Christ, he is left to his own sinful nature and his own conscience...

 

[Danus]

Pre-Foundational election is not of the truth. It does not exist. God, foreknew who would come by faith to His Son, and predestined those who did, to become conformed to the image of His Son... Foreknowledge is not predestination by election. There's a vast schism between these two opposite definitions...Man can and does receive God's mercy and forgiveness/eternal life by the hearing of the word, conviction of the Spirit, and by placing his faith in Christ, his only hope of salvation, and God's only "provision" for man's redemption...

If you don't mind, I'm going to address this along with my testimony. I will try to fit scripture in as well.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, my responce is to GM also. You guys have spent quite a bit of time telling me what you believe, so I'm sure I have a pretty good idea. You said you belive in free will, and mans abaility to use his free will to save himself by comming to God. What did I get wrong?

Well, no, that's not correct. Nothing was said about man's ability to save himself. I've presented a lot of scripture that I believe supports what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, you have lumped me in with a certain theology so you've already decided you know what I mean. I can see you don't. Probably I'm somewhere in between Calvin and Armenian.

One thing for sure, your not here to learn about the reformist view. That part I do know, nor do you care to learn about it. GM posted thread after thread knocking John Calvin and clearly not understanding or making any attempt to do so, and you back him up. ;)

I didn't realize we were here to learn about the reformist view. I figured we were here to talk about the Word of God. And, you're correct, I have no desire to study any man's understanding of what the Word says. I'm here to discuss what the Word of God actually says apart from the any certain doctrine of man.

I think it's fastinating that we have people who can subvert one of the greatest theologions ever because they know more, than some of the most briliant minds to ever write, preach or stand for God's word. Men like Calvin, Edwards, Luther and even Paul...I guess they lived lives in vain for the work they did.

Subvert? Why did Paul admonish the believers in Corinth? For the very reason we're even having this discussion. People have a tendency to follow after some man when we're to be following after Christ.

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

We are members of the body of Christ. There is a priesthood of the believers where we are all taught of God. We are taught by the Holy Spirit directly from the Word. The problem with any particular doctrine is that, over time, the doctrine becomes more important than the living Word. It's like the whisper game, and the original ideas of the old church fathers are hardened and tweaked. That's why we're to reason together, and listen to what the Spirit teaches. Fresh, without having to go through truths that may have gotten lost as men add more and more.

I believe we are each responsible, not to support a particular doctrine, but to see what we can glean from the Scripture, itself. The Holy Spirit should always be given free rein to speak to us directly from the Word of God without having it pass through any particular doctrinal test.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

I know this subject matter is strong on all sides. Please remember your brothers in the LORD.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm wondering how long this the same debate has been going on?

My 1599 Geneva Bible has Calvin's notes in it so I would assume since sometime before then right?

I can certainly see in scripture where Paul explains that "belief" in the "word of truth" the "gospel of your salvation" is revealed to us Gentiles but I still haven't seen where Paul tells us about works that must be accomplished for salvation. Where would I find that?

You won't find that anywhere in the Word, unless you take some isolated verse out of context and match it to your own personal belief. It was the work of the cross that saves us...not our works.

Good deeds we do out of our own efforts may earn us praise from men, but not from God.
Believing in Jesus Christ is the only way we are justified before God.

This is one of my favorites, but there are many others.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Works or good deeds are actually the fruit of the Spirit, that follow after salvation. It's only after you've been made alive through belief in Christ, and filled with His Spirit, that the He can then accomplish His work through you. It isn't what we do, but what He does through us. By their fruit will you know them.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Danus]

You won't find that anywhere in the Word, unless you take some isolated verse out of context and match it to your own personal belief. It was the work of the cross that saves us...not our works.

Good deeds we do out of our own efforts may earn us praise from men, but not from God.
Believing in Jesus Christ is the only way we are justified before God.

This is one of my favorites, but there are many others.


Works or good deeds are actually the fruit of the Spirit, that follow after salvation. It's only after you've been made alive through belief in Christ, and filled with His Spirit, that the He can then accomplish His work through you. It isn't what we do, but what He does through us. By their fruit will you know them.

But what about man's free will. If man has free will to chose God, come to God...ect, yet only God does anything through man...then what is the value of man's free will to seek God before he is saved if he can't do anything good after he is saved on his own?

You see where I'm at?

 

[Danus]

I know this subject matter is strong on all sides. Please remember your brothers in the LORD.

It's all Good Reba. Love and peace here.

 

[glorydaz]

OK, can you expand on that, because that's not the full story of what you believe. I say that your right, man must first hear the word of God, but just hearing it does nothing because not everyone is saved from in this. However, if a man is "convicted by the spirit of God, then it is by the will of God and NOT that man, because it is the only way that man can possibly accept the word of God and know he is a sinner.

Once he knows he is a sinner, he also knows he deserves Hell. Nothing he does saves him from the fact that he is a sinner. Just go ask unrepentant sinners. Tell them they are going to Hell and they will laugh at you. Why? because they have not been convicted by the spirit of God, and they are left to their own free will to do only as they can with it. That is the very basic understanding of John Calvin and other including Paul.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I'd like to add this to the discussion. Perhaps if we stopped assuming what the other believed, we'd be closer than we thought. For instance, I assume you're saying man plays absolutely no part, and you assume I'm saying man does it all. Free will must mean something entirely different to you than it does to me, otherwise we wouldn't have come to this place. So perhaps if we looked to Scripture to support our words, and didn't branch off in too many different directions, we might actually get somewhere.

Why couldn't we start with leaving out John Calvin and whoever the Armenian guys are and just discuss what Paul says, or Jesus says, or James, etc?