Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[Danus]

Agreed. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here in this thread that there are some who believe a more all-encompassing "free will" than we do Grubal. Maybe we believe in "Limited Freewill." We might have to start our own group, huh? lol

Man can certainly be morally upright before he's saved, but what good will it do them if they don't come to know the Lord? They'll find no real peace, and worry and fear never really leave their side. I can remember when I got saved, I felt like the sun had come out on a cloudy day. What hope and joy fill your soul when you open that door and feel the Love of God fill your soul.

Ah well, it's late and I'm getting all sentimental and rambling, sorry. I'm betting I'm the last one up.

Maybe you believe in limited free will? That's what Calvin believed. However, you have to add something to that. If man's will is limited within his own nature...then God must intervene to save him. You guys did not like that Idea earlier, but now your thinking about it. ...

A few post ago you where giving credit to man

 

[kjb1769]

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, -Ephesians 1:13

Danus If I understand you correctly your saying that without God's grace no one can trust in the Gospel?

No one can believe?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Maybe you believe in limited free will? That's what Calvin believed. However, you have to add something to that. If man's will is limited within his own nature...then God must intervene to save him. You guys did not like that Idea earlier, but now your thinking about it. ...

A few post ago you where giving credit to man

Don't be so fast to make a judgment, that was called "hyperbole" not to be taken seriously...You almost thought you had some "converts" huh??

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Is there anything still ambiguous in my question that you require clarification on? If not, could you give the same answer with an additional "yes/no/not yet revealed to me" ?

I'd say - "No, it's not possible for the unregenerate man to ever love God or love his neighbor as himself". Having stated my position on this, I'd back that up with the understanding that the unregenerate man is still in the flesh and that one in the flesh can never obey God's law. This being the very reason one requires to be regenerated - being created with a new spiritual nature through which God works in man to will and to do according to His pleasure.

Does God command a fleshly love towards Him and our neighbors? Or does God command us to love in spirit? I'd say that it is God's will that each man loves God and loves his neighbor as himself, in spirit - and if that is not the case, then God's will is not done in all such cases. So I'd conclude that sin in the flesh does not permit the unregenerate(who are still in the flesh) to ever obey the will of God on how man ought to love, until enabled by the regenerative work of God.


You too seem to agree that it is God's will that we ought to love in spirit - and that sin in our flesh opposes that. Then why exactly are you hesitant to directly address the question - is not sin an overpowering influence that keeps the unregenerate from doing God's will?

Is this question ambiguous in any way, and if so, I'd like to know what you need me to clarify for you on this.

You seem to be overly concerned about getting answers, why?? Could it be, that, you think "highly" of my opinion?? or are you just the curious type??

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe you believe in limited free will? That's what Calvin believed. However, you have to add something to that. If man's will is limited within his own nature...then God must intervene to save him. You guys did not like that Idea earlier, but now your thinking about it. ...

A few post ago you where giving credit to man

We've never given credit to man. That's your misunderstanding of what's been stated.

I can't agree with your statement that man is limited within his own nature.

Man has not changed since Adam. What has changed is that we are out of fellowship with God. He no longer walks with us in the garden. We no longer have His divine nature connecting with our spirit. Man's nature had always included the capacity to sin, yet at creation God declared his creation to be "very good." This, alone, should prove that God created us with a free will. Our choices are limited because we have no spiritual connection to our Creator, and are, therefore left to our own devices.

Adam's sin was not a result of his nature (except for the fact that he had the ability to sin.) His sin was a result of his following the 'lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, as I mentioned earlier. It was Adam's deliberate choice to follow his flesh and reasoning rather than obey God.

Adam became a sinner because he sinned, not because of his nature. The same is true for us.

We've always had the choice - of obeying God through our conscience, or following our own desires. In every case, except that of Jesus, man has chosen to walk after the flesh.

It was death that entered the world by Adam's sin. Faced with our own mortality, and without a spiritual connection to our Creator, we are lost to flounder around and get into trouble. That we do.

Yes, God does intervene with grace and the provision (Jesus Christ) to restore us to fellowship with Him.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We've never given credit to man. That's your misunderstanding of what's been stated.

I can't agree with your statement that man is limited within his own nature.

Man has not changed since Adam. What has changed is that we are out of fellowship with God. He no longer walks with us in the garden. We no longer have His divine nature connecting with our spirit. Man's nature had always included the capacity to sin, yet at creation God declared his creation to be "very good." This, alone, should prove that God created us with a free will. Our choices are limited because we have no spiritual connection to our Creator, and are, therefore left to our own devices.

Adam's sin was not a result of his nature (except for the fact that he had the ability to sin.) His sin was a result of his following the 'lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, as I mentioned earlier. It was Adam's deliberate choice to follow his flesh and reasoning rather than obey God.

Adam became a sinner because he sinned, not because of his nature. The same is true for us.

We've always had the choice - of obeying God through our conscience, or following our own desires. In every case, except that of Jesus, man has chosen to walk after the flesh.

It was death that entered the world by Adam's sin. Faced with our own mortality, and without a spiritual connection to our Creator, we are lost to flounder around and get into trouble. That we do.

Yes, God does intervene with grace and the provision (Jesus Christ) to restore us to fellowship with Him.

Very wise sayings!!!

 

[glorydaz]

What then is this salvation experience we witness to, Glorydaz? Is it the moment we chose to walk out of the already opened prison cell - or is it the day God chose to open the closed prison cell?

As I understand the Word, the prison doors are opened by Christ's work on the cross.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The cross is what reconciles mankind to God.

Reconciled to God by the cross. (prison doors opened)
Saved by His life. (walking out of the open door) (Risen with Him through faith - note Col. 2 below)

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

What then is the purpose of regeneration? What is being changed here, that is not already functional according to the will of God? Is man in the flesh able to obey any of God's commandments - if so, why then the need for a new nature? Can the natural man in the flesh discern enough spiritual truth to be able to act according to it - why then is there the need to be born in the spirit?

Our sins have been forgiven, but we need to come by faith and be born again. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking concerning what's not already functional. Perhaps you could make that a little clearer for me.

Man in the flesh can certainly give an outward obedience to God's commandments, but his motives are always suspect since he has no spiritual connection to God. It's the circumcision of the heart that is necessary, and God has to do that. He creates in us a new heart, and fills us with His Spirit. New Birth. (Risen with Him through faith.)

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Danus]

We've never given credit to man. That's your misunderstanding of what's been stated.

I can't agree with your statement that man is limited within his own nature.

Man has not changed since Adam. What has changed is that we are out of fellowship with God. He no longer walks with us in the garden. We no longer have His divine nature connecting with our spirit. Man's nature had always included the capacity to sin, yet at creation God declared his creation to be "very good." This, alone, should prove that God created us with a free will. Our choices are limited because we have no spiritual connection to our Creator, and are, therefore left to our own devices.

Adam's sin was not a result of his nature (except for the fact that he had the ability to sin.) His sin was a result of his following the 'lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, as I mentioned earlier. It was Adam's deliberate choice to follow his flesh and reasoning rather than obey God.

Adam became a sinner because he sinned, not because of his nature. The same is true for us.

We've always had the choice - of obeying God through our conscience, or following our own desires. In every case, except that of Jesus, man has chosen to walk after the flesh.

It was death that entered the world by Adam's sin. Faced with our own mortality, and without a spiritual connection to our Creator, we are lost to flounder around and get into trouble. That we do.

Yes, God does intervene with grace and the provision (Jesus Christ) to restore us to fellowship with Him.

Well then, I sure hope you make all the right choices, because with that explaination your either on your own, or God is just an advisor to you, and you are saved by your own goodness.

I was not off in understanding your theology one bit, unless you want to change it up again? Or I can point out a few problem areas in your logic if you want, but I don't want to offend you, so let me know.

 

[glorydaz]

Well then, I sure hope you make all the right choices, because with that explaination your either on your own, or God is just an advisor to you, and you are saved by your own goodness.

I was not off in understanding your theology one bit, unless you want to change it up again? Or I can point out a few problem areas in your logic if you want, but I don't want to offend you, so let me know.

Now you're making me laugh out loud.

No, I think I'll pass on your offer to fix me up. ;)

It seems like you are either unable or unwilling to understand anything I say, so I'm quite content to leave it there.

 

[Drew]

what I think dont matter but what god got guys to write in the bible does.

Salvation is a gift of grace from god the father for those that believe in his son Jesus.
The deed done here is submission and repentance of a sinful life. one becomes a follower of Jesus.

Works are gratitude and evidence of an indwelling holy spirit.


I bet that has been said a few times before on this thread or something like it lol.

If this is really so, Chris, why does Paul write the following, clearly stating that it is "according to what they have done" that people are awarded eternal life:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Eventide]

To me it's painfully obvious that men are going to be REWARDED for their service to God.. and He is our exceeding and great reward... there is no end to that.. it's an inheritance beyond measure in HIM..

Now the line is drawn obviously when men think that they're serving God in order to be SAVED versus serving Him out of gratitude for His unspeakable gift.. His SAVING US !

 

[Danus]

To me it's painfully obvious that men are going to be REWARDED for their service to God.. and He is our exceeding and great reward... there is no end to that.. it's an inheritance beyond measure in HIM..

Now the line is drawn obviously when men think that they're serving God in order to be SAVED versus serving Him out of gratitude for His unspeakable gift.. His SAVING US !

I agree. I'm about to take it even further.

Now you're making me laugh out loud.

No, I think I'll pass on your offer to fix me up. ;)

It seems like you are either unable or unwilling to understand anything I say, so I'm quite content to leave it there.

No one is saying that man does not have Free Will, he does. But what is the value of that Free Will to gaining salvation? Nothing, nadda "0". Why? because man's free will is limited to his own sinful nature.

Man can use his rotten Free Will to choose any religion he want's, and he does, including Christianity. But that is not what being a Christian means. It does not mean deciding that's a pretty good religion and I want to be that.

being a Christian means GIVING UP ...your free will and handing it over to God's Will. To do this requires faith and that faith to do this is a gift from God to those whom he will have mercy...the elect. This is what happens when one is born again and from here they take on a new nature and a great work that begins within them.

In doing this he is not choosing others for hell, because they are already there. He's saving people and it's for his glory not theirs.

Man's free will to do anything is nothing but his own work, and that is not where one finds salvation, but in the will of God is anyone saved.

I am leaving for a trip, but I'll be back Sunday night to continue this if anyone is interested.

 

[Eventide]

To do this requires faith and that faith to do this is a gift from God to those whom he will have mercy...the elect.

Once we understand that Christ is the elect of God, the one in whom He delights.. then it becomes obvious... but if people continue to think and believe that they're the elect.. as if God chose them AND His Son.. then there's confusion at best.

It's not Christ AND me.. it's Christ IN ME.. that's my hope of glory..

 

[Danus]

Once we understand that Christ is the elect of God, the one in whom He delights.. then it becomes obvious... but if people continue to think and believe that they're the elect.. as if God chose them AND His Son.. then there's confusion at best.

It's not Christ AND me.. it's Christ IN ME.. that's my hope of glory..

No one thinks that God chose them and his son. That's not found anywhere within the reformist view. That's your own confusion about Calvin.

 

[Eventide]

No one thinks that God chose them and his son. That's not found anywhere within the reformist view. That's your own confusion about Calvin.

LOL... yeah, and unconditional election is all about Christ alone being the elect of God right..

 

[glorydaz]

being a Christian means GIVING UP ...your free will and handing it over to God's Will. To do this requires faith and that faith to do this is a gift from God to those whom he will have mercy...the elect. This is what happens when one is born again and from here they take on a new nature and a great work that begins within them..

Ah, I get it. When you do it, it's called surrender. When we do it, it's called choice.

So what we do is wrong, and what you do is right.

Now, there's something that makes a lot of sense............

You do realize, don't you, that to surrender means you're doing something in your own will.

I certainly hope you can understand what I'm saying here.

 

[reba]

Works are the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. Works don't save you, they reveal you.

For what it's worth.

Well said

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.


Did you guys get along with your siblings? I bet Mom said about every day now boys play nice...


I just could not resist :help

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Ah, I get it. When you do it, it's called surrender. When we do it, it's called choice.

So what we do is wrong, and what you do is right.

Now, there's something that makes a lot of sense............

You do realize, don't you, that to surrender means you're doing something in your own will.

I certainly hope you can understand what I'm saying here.

There seems to be a double standard according to Mr. Danus---

 

[glorydaz]

To me it's painfully obvious that men are going to be REWARDED for their service to God.. and He is our exceeding and great reward... there is no end to that.. it's an inheritance beyond measure in HIM..

Now the line is drawn obviously when men think that they're serving God in order to be SAVED versus serving Him out of gratitude for His unspeakable gift.. His SAVING US !

That's very true, Eventide. To say nothing about it being our duty.

Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

When Jesus knocks on the door of our heart, our interest is piqued by the message of the Gospel. Then the light of Christ shines on our guilty conscience, and we suddenly see our true condition. It's a painful thing to see our sins in the Light of Christ. That's when true repentance takes place. It's at that point that you realize you owe Him your very being. He is the King and you belong to Him. Not a hired hand, but His bond servant. Bought with a price and happy to do His bidding.

Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.