What you just said is anti-Christian
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?
???????????????????? Lacks context
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Decide if you're of the reformed faith.
You're confusing.
Nothing I said is anti Christian but is the truth.
Your understanding of partiality is incorrect and therefore the conclusions you draw unsubstantiated.
God and Partiality
God is independent of His creation and therefore they have no effect outward upon Him (Job 35:7-8). The constitution of anything or creature is dependent upon Him as He is the “first cause” of all things without exception. Thus, there is no creaturely characteristic to favor that God did not place or allow to be there. God alone predetermines the destiny of all people and things. It is true that God does not show favoritism, but this is because the characteristics of individuals are the workings of God and not the individual. God favors the individuals for the characteristics He placed in them.
grumix8
Member
When God was preparing to judge Nineveh, he sent an unwilling Jonah to preach judgement there. The judgement was based upon Nineveh's wickedness - not God's will for the city. Nineveh was spared because through their free will the whole city repented of their wickedness.
If God's Will was being done perfectly on Earth, we would be experiencing Heaven on Earth. The vanilla statement "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that was not God's Will and "be" is the present tense. There is no sin or sickness in Heaven.
Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.
This is easily seen to be false.
Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.
They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4
Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:
Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.
Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!
This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.
Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).
The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.
Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.
Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.
There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.
Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.
As Jesus said to them:
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
Where in scripture does it say God's judgement was not based on God's will. That is a contradiction.
Premise 1: God does not will to judge Nineveh
Premise 2: God judges Nineveh
Conclusion: Contradiction
So you say, though you have not proven it.
By your definition the people of Nineveh got EXTREMELY LUCKY. Not only could each and every individual done "A" or "B" (repented or not repented); but ALL of them repented. Let's say there were 10000 people in Nineveh. There chances of ALL of them repenting using your understanding of FREE WILL is 2 the 10,000 power. Like that's 1995 followed by 3007 zeros. WOW!!! LOL .... INCREDIBLE.
Oh, so God's will is not be done on Earth as it is in heaven. So, Christ's prayer:
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
That prayer is false? ????
You erroneously conflate election of Israel (a nation = you only have I known) and the election of individuals. There is also the election of Moses, the election of the church, the election of angels and the election to service. Do you conflate all these elections?
So those God chooses can resist? Interesting
Again, misunderstanding of various elections.
Where's the FREE WILL as you define it for the 2 billion people who never heard of Christ?
If FREE WILL is the ability to chose "A" or "B" in the same circumstances, why is one rewarded for his indifference and what glory does God get out of adoption children based on their indifference?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The wow blink man reminds me of that cop friend of yours that witnessed a lot.
What do you think I said that wasn't christian?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
LOL
Ok
Edward
2024 Supporter
Perhaps you guys are making free will overly complicated. Of course we have free will. Of course God is complete control. Earth is like a big interactive video game. We're presented with a construct which by nature presents us with innumerable opportunities to make choices. Choices based on free will. We choose to sin or we choose to obey. It's that simple.
Whereas FREE WILL is defined differently by different people ... the statement needs qualification.
I agree, but this is not the general consensus. The majority feel that in regards to salvation they chose God and this is NOT controlled by God.
Ah, you have unanimous agreement to this statement.
Whereas FREE WILL is defined differently by different people ... the statement needs qualification.
Ah, you have unanimous agreement to this statement but the conclusion ignores the crux of the current trend of the thread IMO. That we chose "A" or "B" is a given/simple (the Effect). Free Will (the Cause) is the definition of why we chose "A" or "B". Free Will (the Cause) is the bone of contention; thus one must define FREE WILL and verify the definition using Scripture and empirical observations.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Yeah, see? You're making it too complicated methinks. Free will is simply the ability to consider a choice, then to choose to act upon it either in a good way or a wrong way. We make the decision. I choose to drive down to the burger king and eat lunch there. That is my free will. I was not predestined to eat there. I have the ability to act on it and go eat, or to stay home and fast for the evening, my choice. The predestination was in the opportunity to make that choice that day.
And we choose what we want, by our free will, ability to choose. If we choose wrongly, this has consequences. If we choose to choose what is God's will for us, then we are Blessed for obeying Him. And either choice we make takes us down a path with a domino effect.
God is in control, but we have not because we ask not. This wouldn't mean that God always gets what He wants, because God is not willing that any should die but that all come to repentance.
The day that the Lord will stand there and say to some people, away from me, I never knew you...is going to be a terrible day for our Lord to have to stand there and say that to some of His children. It's going to break His heart.
And the reason is...Free Will. The Lord created this earth with divine laws that even God wont break. He will NOT force Himself upon anyone. We must turn back to our Lord of our own free will. Our decision to make.
Understand?
Possibly... if free will was simple, we all have it figured out and agreed to
I would argue that all choices are not moral, but that is a minor point
Well, you have to define FREE. I agree that you 'willed' it, but the adjective FREE needs to be defined. FREE refers to the CAUSE IMO as used by Christians when discussing this topic. FREE of WHAT CAUSE(S)? The possible causes are endless: Why burger King, because it is close, because you have the means to get there, because of a sale, because the wife said so? Why eat, because you are hungry? Why hungry, because stomach is not full and sends electrical signal to brain which is interpreted by you as need for nourishment? Why do you need to eat, because of genetics? Where did genes come from and how do they control you need to eat. The causes of your decision to eat at Burger King is very complicated. That is just the causes of the current day. What caused you to live near the Burger King? What cause you to be born? How was it determined which of 10,000,000 sperm from you father would impregnate your mother and thus determine you genetic make up. Why are you alive today when that tractor trailer could have .... "A" is cause by "B" is caused by "C" is caused by .... insert 10 to the millionth power and you get to you going to Burger King to eat.
Now, when you have a list of CAUSES you have to say which causes you are FREE of when discussing FREE WILL.
Again, you have yet to define 'free will' so I don't know what you mean. If you mean you ate at Burger King because it is what you desired most at the time, I agree (this being a simplification of the myriad of causes that determined your desire)
This is a statement that you need to provide evidence to substantiate. It seemingly contradicts the following and would need an explanation:
Ephesians 1:11
James 4:15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and we will do this or that.”
The question is not whether or not you have the ability to choose ... the question is "what determines your choice". FREE WILL, free from what?
Agreed. Again, this avoids the crux of the matter. FREE WILL, free from what? ...What determines our will to do "A" or "B".
God always gets what He wants as He is all powerful and all wise and all knowing. It is irrational to think God does not execute the BEST PLAN possible given his attributes/capabilities.
Re: God is not willing that any should die. There is a difference between God's sovereign and moral will. Example: God wishes everyone to not sin, yet he has allowed a world in which sin is present.
I am not God, but even I can ensure that none would die and go to hell. Simply have anyone who will not repent die before the age of accountability and problem solved.
Aside: There is 2 billion people who have not heard of Christ and are doomed to perish. If God's sovereign will (not moral will) is that all should repent He would give them a chance to heard the gospel to exercise the yet to be defined "free will" you support. The empirical evidence must fit your contentions.
This is assigning a human emotion to God.
God is omnipotent, nothing can impair him; he that hath all power, can have no hurt. If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock
Also, none of God's children will be lost (John 6:39). Those that are lost are sons of Satan. (Matt. 13:38)
God is sovereign; as such He is not subject to any laws. Example: God says do not kill so we can't. God tells the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child; then it's OK.
I grant that His essence limits Him from being anything less than perfect; He can't break the mathmatical law of 1+1=2
No. The thesis of your post is FREE WILL. You have not defined FREE WILL, so many of your statements lack foundation. FREE is WHAT/WHO DOES NOT DETERMINE ONES CHOICES so you must first lay the foundation of what you mean before trying to support you contention. (IMO)
Interesting post though ... makes one think.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Free Will is the power of acting freely and without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. AKA Free Will.