IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[OzSpen]

God is a Moral Being and a Sovereign Being.

I'll try to understand what you're saying.....

The following, which you said, I don't quite get... Is there scripture for this??
God wants everyone to be saved (moral will) but His sovereign will does not save everyone. Attatching if they choose Jesus to His will does not negate that. He didn't have to attatch any conditions, especially since He knew most people wouldn't meet the conditions. And right ther, put like that, a condition attatched, makes choosing a work.

If God wants everyone to be saved,,,and yet it is HE that decides (which is what I think you're saying) then WHY wouldn't He just go ahead and save everyone?
How is choosing a work?
I would need scripture for this since I've never heard of this before.

I certainly agree that we are saved by Grace through our faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

We cannot be saved through our own works....works do not save us.
Faith is gifted to us by God when we repent....

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So the above states that we are saved through our faith...
By God's grace
and IT is a gift. There is some debate as to what IT is referring to but I find it's not important in our discussins here.

NOT as a result of works....
We do get works but AFTER we are saved,
as in verse 10.

I believe we agree on this, but I don't understand your point about "conditions".

wondering,

My understanding of God's sovereignty is that he is in control over all things. 'The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord' (Prov 16:33 NIV).

Since 'every decision' is from the Lord, that surely includes decisions relating to His omnipotence (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing) and omnisapience (all-wisdom).

Since every decision is from the Lord, that includes our free-will choices. The omniscient mind of God knows with certainty in advance what every free choice is going to be.

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

This is a very strong part of Reformed. I learned more about it there than anywhere. Surprised?

Why so sad?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

My understanding of God's sovereignty is that he is in control over all things. 'The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord' (Prov 16:33 NIV).

Since 'every decision' is from the Lord, that surely includes decisions relating to His omnipotence (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing) and omnisapience (all-wisdom).

Since every decision is from the Lord, that includes our free-will choices. The omniscient mind of God knows with certainty in advance what every free choice is going to be.

Oz

Oz,
I agree. God KNOWS what our free will choice will be....
but other members on this thread believe that GOD DECREES what our choice will be.

Because God knows our choice...
does not mean He causes us to make that choice.

Do you agree?
Do you agree that we have libertarian free will?

This is all I'm saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why so sad?

Because you should have learned this in ANY Christian church.
I'm sad that it took Calvinism to make you understand it.

 

[Avigdor]

Because you should have learned this in ANY Christian church.
I'm sad that it took Calvinism to make you understand it.

Well I agree with that. I saw it for myself by reading the Bible, but was hearing,implicitly, (by no discussion of it at all or by laying heavy burdens on the people) the opposite. One of the reasons I went searching for teaching that had a focus on God, Him down to us instead of us centered up . I found it in Reformed teaching, though not necessarily in all Reformed churches. It is my understanding many of those have also let the world in, and it is all about us.

 

[Avigdor]

You're right.
On it's own, our fallen nature will not seek God.
But we also know from the N.T. that God does reveal Himself to man.
This has been from the beginning as is shown in
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

From the above we can learn that when each of us is standing before God,,, we will have no excuse as to why we did not believe in Him because God has revealed Himself to mankind through the things God has created that are visible to us.

So we DO have the ability to say YES to God BECAUSE He has revealed Himself to us, and especially through the Hebrew people.

IOW,,, every Christian believes we are born depraved ... Paul makes this clear in the book of Romans. However, calvinism teaches that it is GOD that chooses who will be saved and who will be lost. I find this to be changing the nature of God which is a nature of LOVE, MERCY, and JUSTICE.

God is a God of love, but He is also a JUST God.
Would a just God send someone to hell through no fault of their own?
I don't believe so. God, as the N.T. teaches, gives to all men the opportunity to be saved.
Jesus said REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. (the good news).
The good news is that Jesus can save all those that wish to be saved.
John 3:16

The following is what Calvinism teaches...it is not accepted by the rest of Christianity....
God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost.

CHAPTER 21.
OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.

1. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, [so much is inexplicable to calvinists!]

5. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

source: Calvin's Institutes (as above)

wondering
I will respond to your post 179 in detail shortly. I am getting side tracked fromwhat I am supposed to be doing and need to get back to it. My poor dog-----"What about me?" He likes me to stay on schedule.

 

[JLB]

wondering,

My understanding of God's sovereignty is that he is in control over all things. 'The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord' (Prov 16:33 NIV).

Since 'every decision' is from the Lord, that surely includes decisions relating to His omnipotence (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing) and omnisapience (all-wisdom).

Since every decision is from the Lord, that includes our free-will choices. The omniscient mind of God knows with certainty in advance what every free choice is going to be.

Oz

The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:33


The context is about those of His people who are seeking His guidance in their affairs and decisions.

IOW, they have already chosen to follow the Lord, and are choosing His guidance in their affairs.


Example:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:21-26


The Apostles had narrowed down the choice to replace Judas in the ministry of Apostleship by using wisdom and selecting faithful men among the disciples who had followed the Lord from the beginning.


Now since they all couldn’t agree, they used the biblical method of seeking the Lords guidance In this matter.


Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:8-10


The Point:


Proverbs 16:33 is not an example of God’s sovereignty, since it employs the decision making ability of God’s people. This verse in no way should be used to show God chooses independently apart from man.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL, we are all trying to figure some things out.

Free Will (reform perspective IMO)
Augustine: We always chose what we want at the time (this is free will)

What determines our will to chose freely as defined above ... The FIRST CAUSE (GOD), what people do is the SECOND CAUSE. Law of Causality states: "Every effect has a cause", this is true by definition ... An effect is a change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

Free will is logically impossible. If we picture the exercise of the will as a movement of the mind toward a certain direction, the question arises as to what moves the mind, and why it moves toward where it moves. To answer that the "self" moves the mind begs the question, since the mind is the self, and thus the same question remains. Why does the mind move toward one direction instead of another? If we trace the cause of its movement and direction to factors external to the mind, factors that impress themselves upon the consciousness from the outside and thus influencing or determining the decision, then how is this movement of the mind free? If we can trace the cause to the person's innate dispositions, then this movement of the mind is still not free, since although these innate dispositions decisively influence the decision, the person himself has not chosen these innate dispositions.

The same problem remains if we say that a person's decisions are determined by a mixture of his innate dispositions and external influences. If the mind makes decisions based on factors not chosen by the mind, then these choices are never free in the sense that they are not made apart from God's sovereign control – they are not free from God. Rather, the Bible teaches that God exercises immediate control over man's mind, and he also sovereignly determines all the innate dispositions and external factors related to man's will. It is God who forms a person in the womb, and it is he who arranges outward circumstances by his providence. Then, it is he who controls man's mind and cause each decision that he makes. (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:17)

No created being or created thing exists that is not an EFFECT. God is not created, therefore He is not an effect.

No one can chose God for salvation unless God regenerates them first. I've listed 20 or so verses establishing the fact that man is not capable of choosing God salvifically (Total Depravity). I also listed 20 verses that say the source of our faith is God; thus not ourselves.)

There are no scriptures stating a person selected God independent of God's influence. God does not love everyone; He does not save everyone. I gave verses to prove that also. (Aside: He loves everyone to the extent that the rain falls on the good and the bad). All the proof verses I given have gone unchallenged (granted that does prove I am correct).
I can give verses showing selection for salvation is by God alone, repentance is a gift of God, analogies point to man not being capable, stories of converts that where it is evident God did the work of salvation, verse saying salvation is a WORK of God, verse showing God is one that CALLS, verses showing God attributes would be contradicted by libertarian 'free will'. Notice, salvation (believing) is a work ... work is defined as physical or mental actively one does for a purpose), etc. etc. etc.

Avigdor, if you want a copy of my notes (a summary of 10ish systematic theology book) you are welcome to them. Just finished adding notes from John MacArthur (Biblical Doctrines) and R.C.Sproul (Truths We Confess). I used quotes from Horton six times (smile)
or I can send you Horton's "A Christian Faith Systematic Theology"

1. Fred,,,you said a lot to say this:
. Then, it is he who controls man's mind and cause each decision that he makes. (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:17)
Everything you said prior to this sounds like philosophical free will. We Christians are only interested in free will that is found in the bible...this is libertarian free will, and in the case of the reformed compatible free will....a free will that is not truly free but is compatible with determinism.

2. Believing is a work?
How do you explain that?
What happens to Ephesians 2:8 then?
We are saved BY GRACE through the instrument of FAITH
and this is a GIFT FROM GOD....
If faith and/or salvation is a gift from God,,,then how is it a work?

3. As to your verses:

Acts 17:28
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

In the above verses Paul is speaking to people in Athens that were used to worshipping different gods....he was going to pronounce to them the one, true God.

He explained how God created man and how He created all the nations.

Now look at
Verse 27..... God's PURPOSE in doing this was for man to seek Him. This means that WE must SEEK God and not wait for HIM to decide to save us. It states that God is not far from us and can be found.

Verse 28.... For in HIM we LIVE and MOVE....God is our very LIFE. (for we are His children).

And see Verse 30....God now COMMANDS everyone to REPENT...
God commands us to repent...not to wait till God comes for us.
WE are to repent....an action WE must take.



Colossians 1:17
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Amen!
Jesus is before all things since HE created all by His word and God's command,
and through HIM all things hold together.
John 1:3

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I agree with that. I saw it for myself by reading the Bible, but was hearing,implicitly, (by no discussion of it at all or by laying heavy burdens on the people) the opposite. One of the reasons I went searching for teaching that had a focus on God, Him down to us instead of us centered up . I found it in Reformed teaching, though not necessarily in all Reformed churches. It is my understanding many of those have also let the world in, and it is all about us.

Interesting.
Because in every other "religion" it is man that is reaching up toward God.,

In Christianity it is God that is reaching down to us.

Maybe churches aren't doing so much teaching anymore?
There was a lot of teaching when I was younger and going to church
all the time to learn all I could...reading the bible,,,books, etc.

This is another concept you should have learned,,,,
but God is always at work in us through the Holy Spirit
and it was He that taught you what you needed to know.

God is awesome!

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
I will respond to your post 179 in detail shortly. I am getting side tracked fromwhat I am supposed to be doing and need to get back to it. My poor dog-----"What about me?" He likes me to stay on schedule.

Sure.
I have a cat.
I know what you mean!
?

 

[Avigdor]

Maybe churches aren't doing so much teaching anymore?
There was a lot of teaching when I was younger and going to church
all the time to learn all I could...reading the bible,,,books, etc.

This is another concept you should have learned,,,,
but God is always at work in us through the Holy Spirit
and it was He that taught you what you needed to know.

There is teaching I guess but to me it finally got to the point where it all seemed off to me. Like the focus was in the wrong place. And of course I now know, and sensed before, that much of it was flat out wrong. (Not referring to the free will issue.) I came to salvation in the early eighties and there was a focus then on demons and the super natural and new moves of God, all of it perpetrated with high emotion and frenzy. It was like being in a cult frankly. But even after I found a church that was not into these displays, but still believed most of these things, and I liked the church and the people, I remeber coming down my stairs one morning, dressed for church, and saying to myself with deep longing, "I want to hear about God." And I knew I wouldn't. I didn't even know what I meant, but something was missing. I recognized it when I found it.
Whatever you feel about Reformation teaching and though you disagree with their conclusions, one thing is true. It is God centered from beginning to end, not man centered. It is about who God is, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus in an almost behind the scenes, in depth way. It satisfied me. I have always known that it was the Holy Spirit answering the cry of my heart.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It's not a contradiction Fred.
I ask....why does giving man free will take away any control from God?

Control is defined as "the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. "
Premise 1: You state the God controls everything.
Premise 2: You state God does not control who is saved due to free will".
Conclusion: Since "Who is saved" is part of "everything" and since God does not control "who is saved"... therefore God does not control everything. Simple logic. You have a contradiction (a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another)

God wishes everyone to be saved -- we both know the verses.
So then WHY is everyone not saved, you ask.
I've already replied to this...but, again:
Everyone is not saved because God gives CONDITIONS as to HOW to be saved.
John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED.
John 3:3 JESUS SAID WE MUST BE BORN OF ABOVE TO BE SAVED.
Acts 16:31 PAUL SAID THE JAILER MUST BELIEVE TO BE SAVED.
Mark 1:15 JESUS SAID TO REPENT AND BELIEVE

I explained this. You did not dispute my explanation. Again, the verses say what we must do. They do not explain how it is to be accomplished. You assume man decides, I assume God decides. Each of us must find verses explaining WHY? I gave you 20 verses supporting my viewpoint. You did not dispute any of them. You gave me no verses. (Scripture alone ... sola scriptura)
One of 20ish verses you didn't respond to show the source of faith is God:

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh.

Your response: "By God's grace and IT is a gift. There is some debate as to what IT is referring to but I find it's not important in our discussins here."

It is important because, if I can establish that faith comes from God via scripture, then your 'free will' argument in regards to salvation is in great distress as you state Free Will is the source of our independently choosing God. That is why, assuming you could find an explanation for Eph. 2:8-9, I gave 20ish other verses supporting my contention that faith comes from God.
Again, you have no verses stating faith does not come from God and no verses saying source of our faith is ourselves. The best you can come up with is:
1) verses where God says you must believe and God would not ask us to do something we can not. To this I responded with examples where God asked us to do something that we cannot possibly do(Lazaus, arise from the dead); thus, your statement cannot be proven
2) God is love and thus obligated/motivated to give everyone a chance. To this I responded that God is also a God of Wrath (Jocab I loved, Esau I hated, Psalm 5:5) and also showed that not everyone is given a chance to believe (i.e. people who never heard the gospel).

God is NEVER controlled by man....that would make man sovereign...no such possibility.

Free will denies this when it comes to salvation. Man controls his destiny in that regard. God is obligated to respond according to what we do which is, according to "free willers", independent of God.

Free will believes that man controls who is saved. Free will believes God abdicated ("giving up of sovereign power or sometimes an evading of responsibility such as that of a parent") the determination of who is saved.
The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves, for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him; and knowledge, which is an eminent perfection, would be conferred upon him by his creatures.

You stated:
I challenge you to verify that statement. Again, you are close to what he said, but you have missed an important nuance which results in you saying that Calvin said the God makes (causes) us to sin. THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS TRUE ... lol ... but, find me the quote and prove me wrong.

I made the original statement,,,YOU have to prove ME wrong!

It is always the responsibility of the person using references to state the reference if asked for it is very difficult (sometimes impossible) to prove a negative. Example: I say the word 'banana' is in the bible. You say the word 'banana' is not found in the bible. It is easy for me to prove my statement. Proving the negative would be very difficult. Do you say, "well, I the read the bible and did not find the word, so that is proof'. Well, maybe you missed it. You read the bible again and again state you did not find the word 'banana'. Well, maybe you missed it again. Very difficult, thus your responsibility.

God has given all mankind the POSSIBILITY to be saved...as a loving and JUST God would do....It's up to man to take advantage of this possibility.

Assuming you believe this statement, I have a question that I posed before but you did not answer it.
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Not everyone has heard the Gospel
Premise 3: they (unbelievers) are without excuse (Romans 1:18-21)
Question: Is there a fallacy in one of my premises? If not, I don't see how you statement could be true.

Piper says:
So the macro-world and micro-world are all managed by God. Which means, Yes, every horrible thing and every sinful thing is ultimately governed by God.

I agree with this statement "God governs evil" so I didn't need a reference, but thanks for the cutesy. Do you disagree with Piper because you believe "God does not govern evil?" Keep in mind, you said God is sovereign. (probably won't get an answer)

Aside: What is the story behind you living in Italy; yet speaking English.
Aside: Although we don't agree, I can tell you love God and have devoted time to study. Very Good

 

[Avigdor]

But we also know from the N.T. that God does reveal Himself to man.
This has been from the beginning as is shown in
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

From the above we can learn that when each of us is standing before God,,, we will have no excuse as to why we did not believe in Him because God has revealed Himself to mankind through the things God has created that are visible to us.

So we DO have the ability to say YES to God BECAUSE He has revealed Himself to us, and especially through the Hebrew people.

W

You're right.
On it's own, our fallen nature will not seek God.
But we also know from the N.T. that God does reveal Himself to man.
This has been from the beginning as is shown in
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

From the above we can learn that when each of us is standing before God,,, we will have no excuse as to why we did not believe in Him because God has revealed Himself to mankind through the things God has created that are visible to us.

So we DO have the ability to say YES to God BECAUSE He has revealed Himself to us, and especially through the Hebrew peopl

These passages are dealing with our knowledge that God exists. We know He exists because He has revealed His existance in nature. That makes all guilty. But it is not dealing with our salvation, nature shows us He exists and are guilty, but it does not show us how to be saved. The way of salvation is revealed in His word. Salvation does not depend on us believing that God exists but on believing the Gospel of Jesus. That is what we won't choose on our own.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Believing is a work?
How do you explain that?
What happens to Ephesians 2:8 then?
We are saved BY GRACE through the instrument of FAITH
and this is a GIFT FROM GOD....
If faith and/or salvation is a gift from God,,,then how is it a work?

Believing is a work. John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” The dictionary defines work as "to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity'.
The issue we have is whether the work is God's or ours. Eph. 2:8-9 says God did the work by giving us the gift of faith.

And see Verse 30....God now COMMANDS everyone to REPENT...
God commands us to repent...not to wait till God comes for us.
WE are to repent....an action WE must take.

I agree that repenting is an action we must take. We disagree as to why we take this action. I say God makes us a new creature with a mind that wants to repent. You say we decide to repent without God's intervention.
The bible also says we cannot repent of ourselves (I gave 20 verses showing we are not, of ourselves, capable of repenting (total depravity).

Verses showing repentance is from God:
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”

2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

There are no verses saying we repent freely (without God's influence/permission/calling).

 

[Avigdor]

However, calvinism teaches that it is GOD that chooses who will be saved and who will be lost. I find this to be changing the nature of God which is a nature of LOVE, MERCY, and JUSTICE.

I have said this before but maybe not clearly.
Justice as in justice in God's actions, is for no one to be saved. This is clear even in the Roman's verses you quoted. We all derserve hell. That is justice.
That God chooses some for salvation, but not all, is mercy. He obviously doesn't have mercy on all. Does that make Him unjust? Does that change His nature? His nature would be changed if He saved everyone. And to me it changes His nature if salvation is left entirely up to the individual. He understands our complete treason far better than we do. Who would choose Him left on our own like that?
From a human standpoint God not choosing all but only some seems unjust. And so we try to find a way to soften that reality. And we land on that it was His plan to leave it up to our free will. That way at least it appears to us that those who don't choose, deserve what they get, bear the responsibility themselves. The other side of that coin though, whether acknowledged or not, whether we look at it that way or not, is the truth that us making the right choice has made us also get what we deserve, mercy. Which ofcourse then isn't mercy at all but justice.

 

[Avigdor]

I might have already replied to the above.
The above is acceptable to Christianity that is non-calvinist...
however, it is NOT what calvinism teaches.

Calvinisim does teach it. How is what I said not governing?

 

[Avigdor]

I'm posting an interview with John Piper. He states clearly that God governs everything in the universe....even every bad thing that happens. Piper has stated this many times and, of course, he represents true calvinist teaching.

If God isn't also governing every bad thing that happens, who is?

 

[Avigdor]

The issue we have is whether the work is God's or ours. Eph. 2:8-9 says God did the work by giving us the gift of faith.

I might add here that Jesus did the work. It is the work that He did, meeting all the requirements of the Law, 100% obediant, utterly without sin (as son of Man), being the blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, though He was sinless, His work accepted by the Father witnessed by His ressurrection. He met all the requirements for forgiveness, then imputed His righteousness to His people, those who believe, that faith granted as a gift to the sheep of His pasture. Salvation is ALL of Him. The second Adam. Tempted but without sin.

 

[Avigdor]

I have said this before but maybe not clearly.
Justice as in justice in God's actions, is for no one to be saved. This is clear even in the Roman's verses you quoted. We all derserve hell. That is justice.
That God chooses some for salvation, but not all, is mercy. He obviously doesn't have mercy on all. Does that make Him unjust? Does that change His nature? His nature would be changed if He saved everyone. And to me it changes His nature if salvation is left entirely up to the individual. He understands our complete treason far better than we do. Who would choose Him left on our own like that?
From a human standpoint God not choosing all but only some seems unjust. And so we try to find a way to soften that reality. And we land on that it was His plan to leave it up to our free will. That way at least it appears to us that those who don't choose, deserve what they get, bear the responsibility themselves. The other side of that coin though, whether acknowledged or not, whether we look at it that way or not, is the truth that us making the right choice has made us also get what we deserve, mercy. Which ofcourse then isn't mercy at all but justice.

wondering
God decides what is just and what is not, not us. We determine justice in our realm. as in courts etc. but it is not up to us to define justice in God's mind. Was it just that God in the OT chose only one nation, Israel, to reveal Himself to and protect? That He destroyed other peoples to give what was theirs (though of course it was really God's) to Israel. That He let others perish in ignorance while He enlightened and fed and clothed Israel?

You see there was great love and unfathomable mercy involved, towards Israel of course, but ultimately to all the world (meaning Israel and all peoples outside that nation) when through them He brought Jesus, and salvation. This is one of the places where not only knowing the covenants is important, but understanding that it is through covenant that God relates, interacts with, mankind. He deals with special love with His covenant people. To be in this covenant of faith with God, in Jesus, is only and deeply merciful. Jesus made peace between us and God. I know that you are a believer, W, so from my point of view, that means God chose you. I could never, never never view that as there being a speck of injustice in God, or that that in any way changes His character. It IS His character. Mercy and grace.

 

[JLB]

Believing is a work. John 6:29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” The dictionary defines work as "to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity'.
The issue we have is whether the work is God's or ours. Eph. 2:8-9 says God did the work by giving us the gift of faith.


I agree that repenting is an action we must take. We disagree as to why we take this action. I say God makes us a new creature with a mind that wants to repent. You say we decide to repent without God's intervention.
The bible also says we cannot repent of ourselves (I gave 20 verses showing we are not, of ourselves, capable of repenting (total depravity).

Verses showing repentance is from God:
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”

2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],

There are no verses saying we repent freely (without God's influence/permission/calling).

God granting repentance to people is the Gospel being
preached.

If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:17-18


Notice that believing come first, then comes the gift of life.



God desires all to come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


God sends person to preach the Gospel, in order that people can hear and obey; this means two different people must choose to obey that repentance unto life can be obtained.


If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:17-18


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14



The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of grace, by which man is able to believe and therefore obey the call of the Gospel, which is the call to repent.


Man must choose to respond in obedience.





JLB