IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Avigdor]

If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:17-18


Notice that believing come first, then comes the gift of life.

No doubt this can be interpreted this way, but what is the subject of this discourse beginning in v. 1?
The subject is salvation is for the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
The gift is the Holy Spirit.
The gift was made visible at Pentecost and so also here so that it was clear that it was God who had brought the Gentiles in.
That God granted the Gentiles repentance to life is merely saying that they realized God had done this. I don't understand in what way you think it says that believing comes first and then the gift of life.
What are you referring to when you say the gift of life?
Truthfully, the gift of life, is believing, and though they are two seperate things, they of necessity happen at the same time. If by the gift of life you mean the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit that gives gift of life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Good day JLB.
I don't know if I am allowed to disagree with a moderator. If so, let me know, and I will stop. I assume REFORMED opinion are welcome. If not, I will stop.

You are jumping in late. The question as hand is: Does God choose who will be saved or does this decision (free will) lie exclusively with man. This being a subset of God's sovereignty; does he control ALL things. My response is with this thesis in mind.

God granting repentance to people is the Gospel being preached.

Definition of GRANT: to consent to carry out for a person : allow fulfillment of (Merriam-Webster)
Thus, it is GOD that gives/allow repentance.

If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:17-18
Notice that believing come first, then comes the gift of life.
God desires all to come to repentance.

A lot of context. Peter has been with Gentile Cornelius after a vision and now explaining the Gentiles are now offered salvation. "
"Notice that believing come first, then comes the gift of life." The gift appears to be the holy Spirit of verse 16. I agree, the Spirit regenerates first and gives faith and repentance as part of the process.
“Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Agreed. Again the word "GRANT" refers to the action of the giver, God. God takes the initiative.
"God desires all to come to repentance." Agreed. This does not mean all come. If God sovereignly desires something, it occurs. Not so with His moral desires. Example: God morally desires we all love Him with all our souls and hearts, yet no one does so this side of Glorification.
The story is very telling. Here we have Peter who was taught for years by Jesus. He thinks the Gentiles are not part of God's plan for salvation. He gets a vision which he is unsure of the meaning. Goes to Cornelius. Comes to conclusion that Gentiles are "in on this salvation deal too". Well this is news to Peter, before Christ. ("Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world." )
My point ... the overwhelming percentage of Gentiles, before Christ, had no chance of salvation. This is because God chooses who He saves. Romans 1 saves the God has presented His case to everyone so they are "without excuse". If 'free will' be true, then it is statistically almost impossible that so few Gentiles be saved. For every effect there is a cause.

Again, your verse say "when they believed". This is a WHAT, not a WHY they believed. The verse does not explicitly say why they believed. Only bias can draw a conclusion.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Agreed. You assume God's moral will is the same as His sovereign will. I explained this above with example. (Aside: there is also an issue of the word "ALL". It is ambiguous in scripture. Example: Roman 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Unless you are a universalist, ALL here cannot mean everyone without exception; rather, without distinction.

God sends person to preach the Gospel, in order that people can hear and obey; this means two different people must choose to obey that repentance unto life can be obtained.

Agreed, faith cometh by hearing. It does not answer the question as hand (or at least I think this is the question at hand ... why does one believe. Is it because God gives him faith of because man can, independent God, chose to believe.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14

Agreed, "faith cometh by hearing". The quote implies that one cannot have faith without hearing the gospel. Thus, in regard to who will believe among those who have not heard the gospel, it is self evident that "free will" can not save them. This means for those people either God has not chosen to give them faith, or God does not control who hears the gospel or the 'free will' of man determines who will hear the gospel and therefore, to some extent, who will be saved.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of grace, by which man is able to believe and therefore obey the call of the Gospel, which is the call to repent.

Agreed, it is by the Spirit that "man is able to believe and therefore obey the call of the Gospel". Commonly called regeneration.

Man must choose to respond in obedience.

Agreed. Regarding our thesis: The reason he responds is God has chosen to regenerate him. God has made him a new creature. No one can do it himself as "no one seeks God".


There are no verses saying Christians decision to believe is of themselves and not from God. Scripture tells people they must believe to be saved and they assume they are capable from their own 'will' without God's influence/choosing. Scripture in 40+ verses says people cannot chose to believe of themselves. Scripture has 20+ verses saying faith is given (granted) to them by God. Eph. 2-8-9, Phil. 1:19, Acts 3:16 Romans 12:3 1 Corinthians 12:3 Hebrews 12:2

Respectfully,
F (nice to meet you)

 

[GodsGrace]

Control is defined as "the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. "
Premise 1: You state the God controls everything.
Premise 2: You state God does not control who is saved due to free will".
Conclusion: Since "Who is saved" is part of "everything" and since God does not control "who is saved"... therefore God does not control everything. Simple logic. You have a contradiction (a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another)

God DOES INFLUENCE us once we are saved.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, which will be often. No problem...I just can't continue to try to convince you since we each have our beliefs and they will not be changed. I do enjoy a pleasant exchange of ideas....

Just this.
I could control everything in my HOUSE. (the universe).
However, I could give my kids the freedom to choose what to have for diinner. (salvation).

I explained this. You did not dispute my explanation. Again, the verses say what we must do. They do not explain how it is to be accomplished. You assume man decides, I assume God decides. Each of us must find verses explaining WHY? I gave you 20 verses supporting my viewpoint. You did not dispute any of them. You gave me no verses. (Scripture alone ... sola scriptura)
One of 20ish verses you didn't respond to show the source of faith is God:

• Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh.

I don't know which explanation I didn't dispute.....
However, THIS is not our own doing is referring to the fact that we cannot be saved by our works. We can only be saved because of God's grace toward us and through our faith...if it were by works, we would be able to boast....but it is not. IT is a gift from God...some believe salvation is the gift, some believe faith, some believe both. So I am not willing to debate something theologians are not sure of. Whichever word(s) you wish THIS to mean is fine with me and the meaning does not change. FAITH SAVES US...NOT WORKS.

If you notice in the previous verses Paul is speaking about how God has saved us through Jesus.
Ephesians 2:4-7
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Your response: "By God's grace and IT is a gift. " There is some debate as to what IT is referring to but I find it's not important in our discussion here.

It is important because, [what is important??? please use syntax] if I can establish that faith comes from God via scripture, then your 'free will' argument in regards to salvation is in great distress as you state Free Will is the source of our independently choosing God. That is why, assuming you could find an explanation for Eph. 2:8-9, I gave 20ish other verses supporting my contention that faith comes from God.

No need to prove faith comes from God..every christian believes faith comes from God.
Faith is just the instrument by which we are saved when we believe...it is our faith that saves us.
Even in the O.T. it was faith that made men righteous with God.
Abraham believed (had faith) and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Hebrews 11 mentions others that had faith in the O.T.

However, it IS our free will to choose God.
God reveals Himself,,,we choose to believe.
Acts 17:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
The Jailer Converted
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

The jailer asked Paul how he could be saved.
Paul told him to BELIEVE in the Lord AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Also, please notice the Ordo Salutis:
BELIEVE
BE SAVED

First we believe, then we are saved. (not the other way around).

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.

WE go to God
WE seek Him

This is referring to our choice to go to God, to seek Him, to believe.
Faith is a gift.
We have access to that gift by our free will choice to accept it.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2

Again, you have no verses stating faith does not come from God and no verses saying source of our faith is ourselves. The best you can come up with is:
1) verses where God says you must believe and God would not ask us to do something we can not. To this I responded with examples where God asked us to do something that we cannot possibly do(Lazaus, arise from the dead); thus, your statement cannot be proven
2) God is love and thus obligated/motivated to give everyone a chance. To this I responded that God is also a God of Wrath (Jocab I loved, Esau I hated, Psalm 5:5) and also showed that not everyone is given a chance to believe (i.e. people who never heard the gospel).

Are you actually saying that persons that have never heard the gospel are forever lost?
Please explain Romans 1:19-20.
Thanks.

As to Lazarus....
He was physically dead.
He was not spiritually dead...we're speaking about spiritually dead persons here.
Jesus had a reason not to rush to keep Lazarus from dying.
No one that I know has come back from the dead lately....
this argument is not valid. Unless you could explain to me HOW it is valid.

Free will denies this when it comes to salvation. Man controls his destiny in that regard. God is obligated to respond according to what we do which is, according to "free willers", independent of God.

Free will believes that man controls who is saved. Free will believes God abdicated ("giving up of sovereign power or sometimes an evading of responsibility such as that of a parent") the determination of who is saved.
The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves, for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him; and knowledge, which is an eminent perfection, would be conferred upon him by his creatures.

We've been through this a couple of times now.
Please post a scriptural passage that supports your claim that God loses His sovereignty by giving us free will.

I don't know of such a teaching in the N.T.

It is always the responsibility of the person using references to state the reference if asked for it is very difficult (sometimes impossible) to prove a negative. Example: I say the word 'banana' is in the bible. You say the word 'banana' is not found in the bible. It is easy for me to prove my statement. Proving the negative would be very difficult. Do you say, "well, I the read the bible and did not find the word, so that is proof'. Well, maybe you missed it. You read the bible again and again state you did not find the word 'banana'. Well, maybe you missed it again. Very difficult, thus your responsibility.


Assuming you believe this statement, I have a question that I posed before but you did not answer it.
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Not everyone has heard the Gospel
Premise 3: they (unbelievers) are without excuse (Romans 1:18-21)
Question: Is there a fallacy in one of my premises? If not, I don't see how you statement could be true.

What statement? Please explain FULLY what you want me to respond to. I cannot go back and forth to my post in order to converse with you.

Romans 1:19-20 is saying unbelievers are without excuse PRECISELY BECAUSE God has made Himself known to them...God revealed Himself to all. Some accepted and some did not...this is BEFORE there was any gospel.

Did the American Indian have the gospel?
Did some of them believe in the Great Spirit?
Yes, there's a fallacy in your reasoning.
God is a Great and Sovereign God...maybe more than even YOU think.
You have God in a box...but He will not remain there because HE is God and not
you or what you believe to be true.

I agree with this statement "God governs evil" so I didn't need a reference, but thanks for the cutesy. Do you disagree with Piper because you believe "God does not govern evil?" Keep in mind, you said God is sovereign. (probably won't get an answer)

Of course I disagree with Piper.
God is holy...God is all good....God is love....God is just...
AND IN HIM THERE IS NO DARKNESS.
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God does NOT CAUSE EVIL.
God ALLOWS evil.
We do not know why evil exists...
any answer you come up with will not be correct.

Evil is the number 1 problem in Christianity, maybe the reformers thought they had solved the problem by blaming God for evil?

So, according to you God causes murder, rape, holocausts, torture, persecutions, etc.
for some strange reason that we cannot understand?
Then why would Jesus pray for those that would not come to Him?
Did Jesus not know how the system God set up functions?
Matthew 23:17
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

UNWILLING denotes that had they free will choice to go to Him.

Aside: What is the story behind you living in Italy; yet speaking English.
Aside: Although we don't agree, I can tell you love God and have devoted time to study. Very Good

1. I'm American
2. Right,,, I believe we both love God and have learned much through our years of serving Him.
We have different beliefs but are both saved by Christ and are brothers in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

W

These passages are dealing with our knowledge that God exists. We know He exists because He has revealed His existance in nature. That makes all guilty. But it is not dealing with our salvation, nature shows us He exists and are guilty, but it does not show us how to be saved. The way of salvation is revealed in His word. Salvation does not depend on us believing that God exists but on believing the Gospel of Jesus. That is what we won't choose on our own.

Romans 1 is speaking about the wrath of God falling on unbelievers...right.
If there are unbelievers...there must also be believers,,,right?
Not everyone in the whole world would be an unbeliever!

And it IS speaking about salvation...
That's all Paul spoke of....(almost).

It states WHY unbelievers will be under the wrath of God...
BECAUSE they had the opportunity to know God through God's creation.

There would also be believers, for the same reason...they looked at creation and believed someone bigger had made everything. (the watchmaker making the watch).

Question:

As to your comment that we are saved by believing the gospel...
How were men saved BEFORE the gospel?

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinisim does teach it. How is what I said not governing?

I'm sorry Avigdor....
Please repeat what I said in your reply.
I don't know what you're speaking of above and it's really
difficult to go back and forth to see what I wrote....
What does Calvinism teach?
I must have posted a link or something for support....

 

[GodsGrace]

If God isn't also governing every bad thing that happens, who is?

Evil is a big problem.
Some believe in Dualism....which is not Christian. (two gods...one good, one bad).
Some believe God causes all evil that ever happened- (calvinism).

We don't know too much about evil.
We do know that God allows evil to happen,
but we don't know why.

Assigning God with the total responsibility of evil goes against His nature.
God, being all good, cannot cause evil.

God is a pure and holy being....
God cannot reject one of His attributes and act in defiance to it.
God must be faithful to Himself.
2 Timothy 2:13b

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
God decides what is just and what is not, not us. We determine justice in our realm. as in courts etc. but it is not up to us to define justice in God's mind. Was it just that God in the OT chose only one nation, Israel, to reveal Himself to and protect? That He destroyed other peoples to give what was theirs (though of course it was really God's) to Israel. That He let others perish in ignorance while He enlightened and fed and clothed Israel?

You see there was great love and unfathomable mercy involved, towards Israel of course, but ultimately to all the world (meaning Israel and all peoples outside that nation) when through them He brought Jesus, and salvation. This is one of the places where not only knowing the covenants is important, but understanding that it is through covenant that God relates, interacts with, mankind. He deals with special love with His covenant people. To be in this covenant of faith with God, in Jesus, is only and deeply merciful. Jesus made peace between us and God. I know that you are a believer, W, so from my point of view, that means God chose you. I could never, never never view that as there being a speck of injustice in God, or that that in any way changes His character. It IS His character. Mercy and grace.

Explain what justice means to you.
What does it mean that God is a just God, as in Romans 3:26 for example?

Agreed on your statements re the Covenants.

Which brings up an interesting question to which I've never received an answer.

If God determines everything that is to happen, WHY would He make a bi-lateral Covenant with any people? Why make the Mosaic Covenant with the Israelites if it is HE that already predestined their failure? Was God mocking the Israelites??

IOW,,,,if I know you cannot work for me because you can't type....
Why would I offer you a typing job?
Wouldn't this be mocking you?

Why would God make a bi-lateral covenant when He clearly must have pre-known that they were going to fail?

 

[Avigdor]

Explain what justice means to you.
What does it mean that God is a just God, as in Romans 3:26 for example?

Just, in God, means fair and equitable. His holiness and perfection (all His attributes) ,none are violated, no one gets what they do not deserve. In Roman's 3:26 it sounds to me like Paul is explaining how He did not violate is own justice in passing over previous sins of Israel via the sacrifices. It was because all the worship ceremonies etc. were pointing to Jesus, and now in hindsight so to speak, it was God's righteousness. If that seems way off, let me know.

 

[Avigdor]

If God determines everything that is to happen, WHY would He make a bi-lateral Covenant with any people? Why make the Mosaic Covenant with the Israelites if it is HE that already predestined their failure? Was God mocking the Israelites??

IOW,,,,if I know you cannot work for me because you can't type....
Why would I offer you a typing job?
Wouldn't this be mocking you?

Why would God make a bi-lateral covenant when He clearly must have pre-known that they were going to fail?

I don't know. But He did. Even if He didn't predestine their failure, He knew about it. I do know for sure that He wasn't mocking them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just, in God, means fair and equitable. His holiness and perfection (all His attributes) ,none are violated, no one gets what they do not deserve. In Roman's 3:26 it sounds to me like Paul is explaining how He did not violate is own justice in passing over previous sins of Israel via the sacrifices. It was because all the worship ceremonies etc. were pointing to Jesus, and now in hindsight so to speak, it was God's righteousness. If that seems way off, let me know.

Past midnight and will be shutting down...
BUT
Yes,,,agreed.
Justice means to give to everyone what they deserve.
God does not violate His own justice...giving to everyone what they deserve.

Don't the reform believe that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost and based on nothing at all?

So how is this just? How is it giving to everyone what they deserve?? (if God basis it on nothing at all).

Tomorrow....

 

[Avigdor]

Some believe God causes all evil that ever happened- (calvinism).

Calvinisim does not believe that God causes evil. Evil people cause evil and evil exista in our world because of sin. Sin is evil. People cause evil. We reap what we sow and God works our evil to accomplish His purposes, rather than our evil stopping them. He has a BIG plan. The fullness of our redemption is coming, and with the redemption of all creation, (the trees, the animals, the storms etc.) meaning all things will be restored. No sin in any of us!!! Imagine such a world!

 

[Avigdor]

Assigning God with the total responsibility of evil goes against His nature.
God, being all good, cannot cause evil.

That is absolutely true. You are misinformed when think Calvinist ascribe such a thing to God.

 

[Avigdor]

I'm sorry Avigdor....
Please repeat what I said in your reply.
I don't know what you're speaking of above and it's really
difficult to go back and forth to see what I wrote....
What does Calvinism teach?
I must have posted a link or something for support....

I'm not sure how to resend it to you but it is post 166.

 

[Avigdor]

Romans 1 is speaking about the wrath of God falling on unbelievers...right.
If there are unbelievers...there must also be believers,,,right?
Not everyone in the whole world would be an unbeliever!

And it IS speaking about salvation...
That's all Paul spoke of....(almost).

It states WHY unbelievers will be under the wrath of God...
BECAUSE they had the opportunity to know God through God's creation.

There would also be believers, for the same reason...they looked at creation and believed someone bigger had made everything. (the watchmaker making the watch).

Question:

As to your comment that we are saved by believing the gospel...
How were men saved BEFORE the gospel?

I always viewed those Roman's passages as explaining the utter falleness of mankind, even though nature shows God's existence and therefore no one has an excuse. He is laying the ground work for his thread of redemtion that flows through Romans. He shows our treason, our hopelessness and the way out.
As to how men were saved before the gospel, that is something Idon't know, not in ant grounded way. I only know that they were looking forward to Jesus. They spoke of Him, and Jesus is present through all the OT. Some seemed to have a deeper understanding than others and maybe more than is explained in the OT. Dunno. We know people were though, because Elijah and Moses for two, appeared to speak with Jesus. And I also know, because Jesus said so, He is the only way.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God DOES INFLUENCE us once we are saved.

Agreed

Just this.
I could control everything in my HOUSE. (the universe).
However, I could give my kids the freedom to choose what to have for diinner. (salvation).

If you love your children, why would you let them chose 'rat poison' or 'chicken' for dinner? If you don't control dinner then you don't control EVERYTHING by definition. This is a life and death analogy. In my system, God does not love everyone Psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Romans 9:13. He saves 100% of those he loves. In your system a majority the people He loves go to hell.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.

The verse supports my contention that faith is given to us so we can believe.
Premise 1: Faith is pleasing to God
Premise 2: An unsaved person cannot please God without faith
Conclusion: The unsaved person cannot please God via "free will" faith because that is a contradiction of the two premises.
(that might be difficult to follow ... I tried)

Note: He who COMES TO GOD must BELIEVE that He is
and God rewards THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.
Agreed. Again the question at hand is WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF US SEEKING HIM. This verse addresses WHAT we must do; not WHY we did it.

Are you actually saying that persons that have never heard the gospel are forever lost?
Please explain Romans 1:19-20.
Thanks.

WOW ... you believe those that never heard the gospel can be saved? WOW ...never heard an informed Christian that believed that. Very interesting. That would be consistent with your God loves everyone and therefore is obligated to give everyone a chance at salvation. WOW
There is only salvation in Jesus’ name (Acts 4:12); therefore, a person cannot be saved simply through general revelation. The problem is that Scripture declares that, unless a person is in Christ, he or she “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). Romans 3:10–12, quoting Psalm 14:3, pronounces the unregenerate nature to be universally sinful: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” According to Scripture, the knowledge of God is available (through general revelation), but mankind perverts it to his own liking. Romans 1:21–23 states, “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” The status of those without God is one of rebellion, darkness, and idolatry.
Please clarify: Do you believe those who do not hear the gospel can be saved? And if so how? (Not talking about babies or mentally handicapped.)

As to Lazarus....
He was physically dead.

My mentioning Lazarus was to make the point that God can give commands that we can't obey ... like love God with all your mind and heart. I think you took it another way.

Please post a scriptural passage that supports your claim that God loses His sovereignty by giving us free will.

LOL.... no way I can do that. The question assumes God gives us "FREE WILL" (ability to believe salvifically from the power within ourselves). Since this is not true, there will not be a verse to establish it. Like saying "show me a verse supporting God losing His sovereignty because God lied". I won't find it because God never lies.

Matthew 23:17
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

UNWILLING denotes that had they free will choice to go to Him.

UNWILLING denotes that had they free will choice to go to Him... that is what you insert into the verse. I can just as easily state: UNWILLING denotes that God has not chosen to give them faith to believe. The verse DOES NOT say why we are unwilling. I can see the possibility that you could be correct; for some reason you can't see my explanation could fit the verse.
Best to use hermeneutic rule of interpreting implicit verses by explicit verses to verify assumptions which is to say the meaning is ambiguous.

Have a good night in Italy.

 

[Avigdor]

Don't the reform believe that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost and based on nothing at all?

So how is this just? How is it giving to everyone what they deserve?? (if God basis it on nothing at all).

We have been over this before, others besides me too, and you didn't accept it then and probably won't now. I am stating a fact, not an accusation.
The reformed do not say that God chooses for no reason at all. They say is choosing is not based on any merit in those He chooses. Not how good or bad we are, what we will accomplish or have done. Those He chooses have no merit of their own. That does not mean He has no reason for choosing who He does. He always has a reason for everything He does or He wouldn't be God. If I can say that, believe that, as Reformed, how can you say we believe God chooses for no reason at all? WE don't know His reason, which doesn't mean He doesn't have one.
And again, Choosing some to save isn't giving to everyone what they deserve (justice) it is giving some mercy.

Is there a feeling that it is unfair? Does it look that way at first glance? Sure. But we have to remember here, we are the creatures and He is the Creator. He is the one who truly knows justice and mercy as they are part of Him. To me, letting us fend for ourselves, make our own choice with this God forsaken "free will" seems unfair and unjust. I would much rather trust my salvation to the Almighty God, who cares for the widow and the orphan, the downtrodden and the devastated and hears our cries for mercy, who
recognize it when it falls on them and her grateful with a bottomless gratitude.

God bless. I know you are sleeping as I write this. so I guess---good morning?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
I agree. God KNOWS what our free will choice will be....
but other members on this thread believe that GOD DECREES what our choice will be.

Because God knows our choice...
does not mean He causes us to make that choice.

Do you agree?
Do you agree that we have libertarian free will?

This is all I'm saying.

wondering,

It's a shame we call it 'libertarian free will' because secular libertarians have a strong anti-authority sense. As one to agrees with libertarian free will, I mean that from Adam & Eve right down to us, God has granted all of us the power of free choice.

It started with the choice to obey or disobey God over the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To contemporary people, they can choose to buy cabanossi (which I did yesterday) & am munching on now. I could have, with the power of alternative choice, chosen some salami or frankfurts.

When it comes to choosing which god/God we serve, God has given us the choice. How do we know? He has stated it clearly for the Israelites:

"Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! (Joshua 24:14-16 NIV).​

I was so disturbed by a Calvinistic pastor when I heard him preach on this passage that I wrote this article: Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15.

AND, I ask, can this choice extend to salvation? See: Can people choose to reject salvation?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:33


The context is about those of His people who are seeking His guidance in their affairs and decisions.

IOW, they have already chosen to follow the Lord, and are choosing His guidance in their affairs.


Example:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:21-26


The Apostles had narrowed down the choice to replace Judas in the ministry of Apostleship by using wisdom and selecting faithful men among the disciples who had followed the Lord from the beginning.


Now since they all couldn’t agree, they used the biblical method of seeking the Lords guidance In this matter.


Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the LORD’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:8-10


The Point:


Proverbs 16:33 is not an example of God’s sovereignty, since it employs the decision making ability of God’s people. This verse in no way should be used to show God chooses independently apart from man.




JLB

Ligonier Ministries (R C Sproul) disagrees with you in regards to Proverbs 16:33: Lord over chance.

 

[Fastfredy0]

When it comes to choosing which god/God we serve, God has given us the choice.

If this be true, I ask you to prove it empirically. If you can stop sinning then you have proven you have been given a choice of which god/God you chose. You have a handicap that unbelievers do not, as you have the Spirit of God indwelling you.
If you cannot stop sinning, explain why you continue to desire to sin, after all ... your hypothesis assumes you have this power.
Let us know how your 'free will' does in this experiment.

Potentially Encouraging verse
John 8:11 “No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.” ... I've been told by others on this string that God does not ask us to do something we cannot do. If that is true, then stop sinning.

Of course, Paul was not able to stop sinning ... if anyone could you would think it was Paul.
Galatians 5:17 For the sinful nature [inherited from Adam which you did not chose via your "free will"] has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict and they dwell in you and influence you ... YOU ARE NOT FREE TO DECIDE], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do [if Paul has "free will", why doesn't he use it?].

Romans 7:14 We know that the Law is spiritual, but I am a creature of the flesh [worldly, self-reliant—carnal and unspiritual], sold into slavery to sin [and serving under its control-not the control of "free will"]. 15 For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled and bewildered by them]. I do not practice what I want to do [if Paul has "free will", why doesn't he use it?], but I am doing the very thing I hate [and yielding to my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. 16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do [if Paul has "free will", why doesn't he use it?], [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent). 17 So now [if that is the case, then] it is no longer I who do it [the disobedient thing which I despise], but the sin [nature] which lives in me [something controls Paul, and it isn't his "free will"]. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not [if Paul has "free will", why doesn't he use it?]. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want[if Paul has "free will", why doesn't he use it?]. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want to do, I am no longer the one doing it [that is, it is not me that acts], but the sin [nature] which lives in me [doesn't sound like "free will" to me].